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Список Навроцького: актуальний must have для польсько-українських відносин
Президентська кампанія у Польщі завершилася, хоча подієвий шлейф після неї буде помітним щонайменше протягом кількох тижнів. Україна має два місяці для того, щоб сформувати новий порядок денний відносин з Польщею, який відповідав би сучасним викликам двосторонніх відносин. Від його ефективності залежатиме майбутнє нашого стратегічного партнерства
Чинний і новообраний президенти Польщі Анджей Дуда і Кароль Навроцький. Фото: Grzegorz Wajda/REPORTER
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Його можна умовно назвати «список Навроцького». Так, Польща — парламентсько-президентська республіка, де повноваження глави держави не вражають обсягами. Проте заяви Кароля Навроцького під час президентських перегонів потребують від України радикальних змін підходів до діалогу з Варшавою. Нинішній президент-елект виступає каталізатором потрібних змін у відносинах Польщі й України, тому «список Навроцького» необхідно формувати вже зараз.
1. Новий договір про дружбу та співробітництво. Нагадаю, що Договір про добросусідство, дружні відносини та співробітництво між Україною та Республікою Польща був підписаний і ратифікований ще у 1992 році. Це було логічно з огляду на першість Польщі у питанні визнання незалежності України, але сьогодні актуальним кроком є ухвалення нової версії Договору. Варшава і Київ почали вести відповідні консультації у розквіті повноважень президента Анджея Дуди, і завершення цього процесу дозволило б перекинути логічний місток від одного президента до іншого.
2. Рішення про продовження ексгумації жертв Волині. Рішення про проведення ексгумації у Пужниках (Тернопільська область) дозволило нейтралізувати негативний ефект від чергового акту вандалізму над похованням воїнів УПА на горі Монастир. І продовження ексгумації — бодай з огляду на місце роботи Навроцького, який очолював Інститут національної пам’яті, є логічним. Цей крок дозволить мінімізувати негативні наслідки очікуваної участі Кароля Навроцького у заходах з агресивного вшанування пам’яті жертв Волинської трагедії у липні.
3. Залучення Польщі як посередника до переговорного процесу з Росією. Для Варшави є характерними небезпідставні дипломатичні амбіції. Хоча президент Польщі не призначає міністрів оборони й закордонних справ (як його український колега), впливати на зовнішню та оборонну політику він точно намагатиметься. Відтак більш активне посередництво Польщі в російсько-українському діалозі може виявитися корисним і для Києва, і для Варшави.
4. Участь у відзначенні п’ятої річниці створення Люблінського трикутника. Цьогоріч цій геополітичній конструкції в Балто-Чорноморському регіоні виповнюється п’ять років. Хоч останніми місяцями у зовнішньополітичній риториці Польщі більш помітним є Веймарський (Німеччина — Польща — Франція) трикутник, проте саме Люблінський трикутник, як і створена в Любліні десять років тому Польсько-литовсько-українська бригада імені князя Костянтина Острозького, можуть сприяти зміцненню регіональної безпеки. Це варто «продавати» Каролю Навроцькому й членам його команди.
5. Активізація участі України у проєкті Тримор’я. Ініційований президентами Польщі й Хорватії проєкт розвитку країн між Адріатичним, Балтійським і Чорним морями повинен політично пережити своїх засновників — Анджея Дуду й Колінду Грабар-Кітарович. Для Кароля Навроцького це може стати елементом власної зовнішньополітичної активності, а для України — шансом на збільшення зовнішньополітичної суб’єктності. До того ж Україна має розгалужену ГТС, яку необхідно використовувати для транзиту природного газу.
6. Відновлення діалогу про участь Польщі у процесі відновлення України. Представники польського бізнесу понад два роки намагаються отримати від України відповідь на питання щодо власної участі у процесі відбудови України. Вони небезпідставно припускають, що представники різноманітних транснаціональних корпорацій можуть в останній момент їх відтіснити. Тут доцільно згадати обіцянку Навроцького під час теледебатів «відправляти в Україну не польських солдатів, а польських бізнесменів» — та підіграти їй.
7. Просування «нового прометеїзму». Спираючись на публічний образ новообраного президента Польщі, Україна могла б запропонувати йому «новий прометеїзм» — концепцію спільної протидії Росії та її впливу у Балто-Чорноморському регіоні. Творчо переосмисливши спадщину Юзефа Пілсудського, українське керівництво могло б спробувати створити атмосферу довіри у відносинах з Варшавою.
Замість післямови. Україна має два місяці на формування політики щодо Навроцького й Польщі, яку він очолить у серпні. Зараз м’яч — на українському боці поля, а шанси порозумітися з політиком з «новим обличчям» є високими.
Євген Магда — український політолог, історик, журналіст, директор Інституту світової політики. Автор книг «Гібридна війна. Вижити і перемогти» та «Гібридна агресія Росії: уроки для Європи». Увійшов до десятки кращих політичних експертів й аналітиків України в рейтингу видання «Коментарі» 2020 року. Син, брат, чоловік, батько. Тримає руку на пульсі подій в Україні та її сусідів понад 20 років.
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I think people don’t realize how bad things were in America even before Trump. If anything, I see Trump as simply someone openly talking about the things the American government has been doing for centuries. By no means am I saying that what Trump is doing is okay – but he is honest about it. After all, the Biden administration deported an average of 57,000 people per month, while the Trump administration deported 37,660 people last month – and yet we never hear about Biden’s deportation plans. We praise liberals for their commitment to human rights, but what have they actually achieved?
They don't protect women's rights, they allow the genocide of Palestinians, they arrest students for protesting, they enable Russia to continue its crimes, and they restrict our freedom of speech. And yet we are expected to vote for them because they are the “lesser evil”? I keep hearing that the future "rests in the hands of young people" because the older generation caused this whole mess. I’m expected to protest, vote, organize – while being cut off from all of it.
What kind of democracy is America, if our only choice is between two evils, both backed by the same powerful interests?
I think when looking at America, we need to ask ourselves: “For whom was it ever good?” It has always been a good country for white Americans, and now it’s probably even better for them. But has it ever been a good country for women? Has it ever been good for people of color? I think we forget this when we idealize America. It was never a great country, and it will never be “great again” unless the past we're referring to is that colonial, racist empire that Trump wants to bring back.
Looking at the “American Dream” from the perspective of a post-communist country in Eastern Europe, it’s easy to idealize it. Nevertheless, I always try to remind people from Eastern Europe that the society, security, education, and healthcare we have here are worth a million times more than the idealized version of what their life could look like in the capitalist utopia of America.
I recently visited New York. Although it’s one of the most expensive cities in the U.S., the price hikes over the past year shocked me. I heard from friends that they can’t afford their rent because it was raised by 25%. Some of them haven't been able to find a job since last summer – and by "job" I mean any job, even in a café or grocery store. And these are people who graduated from prestigious universities like Columbia or NYU.
William Edwards and Kimberly Cambron are married on Valentine's Day at Times Square in New York on February 14, 2025. Photo: Kena Betancur/AFP
Food prices continue to rise. Last year, groceries that lasted me about 10 days cost around $120. When I came to New York recently, that amount had doubled. It’s obvious that Trump wants an economic collapse so that only the top 1% can afford anything – but what then? Are all the people that are unable to afford anything supposed to end up arrested and become another form of slave labor for the American empire? Is that Trump’s plan?
Homelessness in America is another thing I noticed become worse after being away for a year. To my surprise, I found that Americans have become even more indifferent to it than before. The rise in the number of people using drugs on the streets is terrifying, and the fentanyl epidemic is rapidly turning more cities into “zombie cities. ”It was already a serious problem during the pandemic, but now it’s even worse.
More and more people can't afford to pay rent — and more and more are ending up on the streets.
Although the sight of people using drugs frightens me, what I feel even more strongly is anger. Why is no one helping them? How can Americans be so indifferent, watching people die on the streets every day?
Now Trump wants to make homelessness illegal. He will use those who cannot be trapped within the capitalist system as another labor force for America's prison-industrial complex
Homeless people eat Thanksgiving lunch organized by the nonprofit Midnight Mission for nearly 2,000 homeless people in the Skid Row neighborhood of downtown Los Angeles, Nov. 25, 2021. Photo: Apu GOMES/AFP
America is slowly falling apart, like every empire, but its problems didn’t arise overnight.
The cracks in the foundation had existed for years in a country whose core was built on genocide and slavery, but now they can no longer be ignored. So how can the citizens of this country continue to look away and not take action? Because it’s easier to sit at home, distracting themselves with entertainment, social media, or daily responsibilities, than to confront the harsh realities of what is happening around them.It saddens me to realize that many Americans only grasp the seriousness of the situation when their own property is at risk. Only when their belongings, their sense of security, or their daily lives are threatened do they start to understand that change will not come from passive observation or waiting. The urgent need to take to the streets and demand action becomes clear only when the consequences of inaction are personally felt. But history shows us that by then, it’s already too late.
“First they came for the socialists,
and I did not speak out—because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me".
The first and foremost is the experienced political strategist Susie Wiles. Aged 68, she currently holds the position of Chief of Staff at the White House and controls access to the president. It was she who insisted that technology billionaire Elon Musk should not be granted a private office in the White House. Otherwise, he would never leave the Oval Office.
Susie Wiles has been by Trump’s side for many years. Photo: Anna Moneymaker/Getty Images/AFP/East News
Susie began her career in political PR in 1979. Coincidentally, her first job was at the office of Jack Kemp - a Republican and, crucially, also a star of American football and a teammate of Susie’s father on the New York Giants. This role became a springboard for the young professional into the world of high-level politics - by 1980, she had already joined the presidential campaign of the new Republican star Ronald Reagan. In fact, it was on Wiles’s advice that Trump regularly quoted this great American and even reworked his political slogan to suit his own agenda.
After working on the presidential campaigns of George W. Bush and Mitt Romney, Wiles decided to monetise her expertise and earn wealth from commercial clients. This enterprising lady founded consultancy and lobbying firms, which made her not only a successful political consultant but also a wealthy one. In her best years, she had more than 40 clients, including entire countries such as Qatar and Nigeria, as well as tobacco giants. Elon Musk’s SpaceX and telecommunications monopolist AT&T also sought Wiles’s assistance.
In 2015, while enjoying the sunshine and palm trees of Florida, Donald Trump entertained an intriguing idea - to run for President of the United States. He therefore hired the successful lobbyist and political strategist - the two appreciated each other and began to work together.
Trump calls her «ice baby» and repeated the nickname during his speech at his Mar-a-Lago estate after it became clear he had won the election. The media, however, upgraded this «ice baby» to a more mature «Ice Queen»
Wiles’s colleagues highlight her strengths as a strategist. She brought the much-needed order to Trump’s campaign, managed its narrative (to the extent possible with Trump himself), and demonstrated her outstanding organisational skills. One of Wiles’s colleagues even described her as Trump’s longest-serving adviser, present at all his key meetings. Within the president’s circle, it is said that he frequently includes her in phone calls concerning political matters.
As often happens, the media sometimes receives leaks, such as about a secret Signal chat, where Wiles showed her firm character and hinted at the dismissal of National Security Adviser Mike Waltz.
Regarding her management style, in what is perhaps her only interview since her appointment, she told Axios:
«I do not welcome people who want to operate solo or become stars. My team and I will not tolerate backstabbing, inappropriate speculations or intrigue».
At one point, Wiles successfully dealt with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who challenged Trump in the primaries and even demanded that Wiles be dismissed from the campaign. When he dropped out of the race in January 2024, Wiles simply posted on social media: «Bye-bye».
The 2024 election campaign, which Wiles led alongside political consulting veteran Chris LaCivita, was successful and passed without major scandals
Trump followed advice, remained calm and used social media less frequently. At the same time, he appeared on young podcasters’ shows and danced for TikTok, which helped attract new voters.
Establishing contact with Susie Wiles is essential if one wishes to access the very brain of the President of the United States. Moreover, she controls the movements of all Trump’s friends and acquaintances within the White House, which is precisely why the musician Kid Rock appears there from time to time, but golf buddies are seen less often.
Another key woman who helped make Trump president twice is the charismatic Christian preacher Paula White. She recently became head of the newly established Office of Faith Affairs, which, among other things, is tasked with promoting religious freedom not only nationally but also internationally. During Trump’s first term, Paula White also worked on religious matters, though on a more modest scale.
The charismatic Paula White is always at the side of the President of the United States. Photo: Brynn Anderson/Associated Press/East News
The attractive blonde has known the Trump family since 2001. She is a star of Christian television, with her sermons filling stadiums and concert venues. Clearly, at some point, Trump heard Paula White working with an audience, became inspired by her prosperity theology - according to which material success is a sign of divine grace - and decided that such faith suited him.
If one closely observes the pastor’s speeches, it becomes evident that Trump copied her manner of speaking and gesticulation
The trust in White is so great that during his first term, she served as chair of the Evangelical Advisory Board for Trump’s 2016 campaign, and she became the first female clergy member to deliver a prayer at the inauguration on January 20th 2017.
Pastor White supported Trump in the 2020 presidential race, delivering a prayer at his campaign launch event. Similarly, during the 2024 election campaign, she was actively involved in the future president’s team. This accounts for the high support among the Christian electorate.
Paula White is known for her staunch support of Israel and has even appeared on lists such as «The 50 Best Christian Allies of Israel»
For Ukrainians, a significant fact is that from the very beginning of the invasion, Pastor White organised humanitarian aid for Ukrainian refugees in European countries, regularly reporting this on her website. Therefore, establishing contact with Paula White is a task for every Protestant pastor. It is a guaranteed path straight to Trump’s heart.
In her new role, Paula White will be working closely with the new Attorney General of the United States, Pam Bondi. In parallel with White’s appointment, Bondi was named head of a task force to «eradicate anti-Christian bias», which is intended to put an end to «all forms of anti-Christian attacks and discrimination within the federal government».
Pam Bondi is part of Trump’s inner circle. Photo: Ben Curtis/Associated Press/East News
The 59-year-old former head of the Florida state prosecutor’s office has pledged to maintain the independence of the Department of Justice and «not involve politics in its operations» - amid concerns that Trump intends to take control of the agency and exact revenge on those who led investigations against him and his supporters regarding the refusal to recognise the election results and the storming of the Capitol in 2021.
Interestingly, Bondi was not the president’s first choice for the post of Attorney General. Initially, Trump intended to assign the role to Matt Gaetz. However, before the appointment, the United States Congressional Ethics Committee discovered that Gaetz had spent over 90 thousand dollars making payments to 12 women, a significant number of whom were allegedly linked to services involving underage prostitution and drug use.
Ironically, during Trump’s first presidential term, Pam Bondi chaired the commission on the abuse of narcotic and opioid substances. Recently, the lawyer has been consulting for the America First Policy Institute - an organisation with considerable influence over the newly elected president’s political agenda.
On her first day as Attorney General of the United States, Pam Bondi decided to shut down the special unit tasked with seizing the assets of Russian oligarchs. Instead, the lawyer declared that the new enemy of the United States is the drug cartels
Nevertheless, Russian oligarchs certainly cannot expect the immediate return of their yachts. At the same time, Bondi did not state that the cases handled by the now-disbanded KleptoCapture unit would be closed. It is likely they will continue, although there will no longer be a dedicated team focusing exclusively on this activity. It is also possible that new cases will be launched.
Recently, Pam Bondi demonstrated her loyalty to her chief. She officially declared that it is unlikely criminal proceedings will be initiated over the transmission of sensitive military information via an unsecured Signal chat, in which Defence Secretary Pete Hegseth shared a plan for an airstrike on targets in Yemen.
The Attorney General intends to maintain Trump’s legal peace and protect him from the consequences of his past actions. Like the first two women, she belongs to Trump’s closest circle and is expected to remain with him until the end of his current term.
This project is co-financed by the Polish-American Freedom Foundation within the framework of the «Support Ukraine» programme implemented by the Education for Democracy Foundation
Як українцям у Польщі отримати безкоштовне лікування від онкології?
Перший крок — з'ясувати, чи є у вас підстави для отримання безкоштовного лікування. Для цього потрібно мати статус UKR або бути застрахованим у системі державного медичного страхування, сплачуючи відрахування до ZUS (Zakład Ubezpieczeń Społecznych — заклад соціального страхування) — самостійно або як член родини працюючої в Польщі людини. В іншому випадку лікування буде платним.
Наступний крок — визначення першого контакту. Найчастіше це звернення до сімейного лікаря (lekarz Podstawowej Opieki Zdrowotnej – POZ), записатися до нього можна за цим алгоритмом. Лікар має видати направлення на обстеження чи на наступний рівень лікування, а також карту DILO (“зелена карта”), яка має прискорити проходження обстежень, якщо є підозра на онкологічну хворобу.
Отримати направлення (skierowanie) на подальше обстеження та лікування від онкологічної хвороби можна також від гінеколога (до цього лікаря можна звертатися без відповідного направлення сімейного лікаря).
Ну і звернення може бути безпосередньо для онколога. Шукати онколога для першої консультації потрібно за запитом “poradnia onkologiczna/назва місцевості”. Там пацієнта просять надати інформацію про причину звернення до онкологічного центру, попереднє лікування (чи проходив його, у який спосіб і з яким результатом), а також вказати наявні захворювання та симптоми, які спонукали його до візиту. Перший етап прийому зазвичай здійснює досвідчена медична сестра онкологічного профілю, яка проводить співбесіду з пацієнтом і збирає медичний анамнез. Під час цієї розмови пацієнт має право зазначити довірену особу, якій буде дозволено надавати інформацію про стан його здоров’я. Важливо на перший візит прийти з близькою людиною, подругою, другом, адже від стресу можна забути якусь важливу інформацію.
Які документи потрібно мати із собою для отримання онкологічного лікування
Варто зібрати всі документи, якщо ви вже спостерігалися в Україні й зробити завчасно присяжний переклад ключових з них: (діагноз, гістологія, імуногістохімічне дослідження), а також результати КТ, МРТ, УЗД (з описами та дисками), лабораторні аналізи, інформацію про перенесене лікування.
Важливо підготувати ключову інформацію щодо вашої ситуації. Оскільки спілкування буде польською, можна надрукувати собі цю інформацію у вигляді довідки, щоб нічого не забути:
нотатки про свої симптоми,
перенесені серйозні захворювання, хронічні захворювання, методи лікування та алергії;
запитайте у своїх близьких, чи є у вашій родині випадки раку: коли був рак, і який саме тип раку;
список ліків, які ви регулярно приймаєте, дозування;
бажано мати польськомовного перекладача, якщо польська у вас не вільна.
Чи варто боятися черг онкохворим у Польщі?
Всі знають про довгі черги в польських лікарнях, але для онкохворих, яким видають спеціальну карту DILO (“зелена карта”), інші правила.
Карта онкологічної діагностики та лікування (розмовно: зелена карта DiLO) була запроваджена 1 січня 2015 року разом з “Онкологічним пакетом” – групою нормативних актів, спрямованих на покращення діагностики та лікування раку в Польщі.
Швидка онкологічна терапія призначена для пацієнтів, у яких лікарі підозрюють або підтверджують злоякісні пухлини, а також для пацієнтів, які проходять онкологічне лікування. Вікових обмежень щодо доступу до лікування в межах експрес-онкологічної терапії немає.
З липня 2017 “зелена картка DiLO” складається з двох сторінок. Лікар заповнює картку на комп'ютері та видає роздруковану версію пацієнту. “Зелена” вона, бо дає зелений колір у лікуванні онкологічних захворювань, хоча сама карта білого кольору.
Вона полегшує доступ до всіх обстежень. “На всіх аналізах стоїть печатка DILO — це спрощений, пришвидшений доступ до МРТ, УЗД серця, сцинтиграфії, лікування тощо, все безкоштовно й швидко”, — ділиться досвідом українка Олена Бойчук, яка бореться з онкологією з листопада 2023 року.
Нюанси онколікування в Польщі для українців
Насамперед чимало українців пишуть, що їхнім українським аналізам не довіряють та змушують заново проходити всі обстеження, а люди витратили час на поїздку в Україну, очікування результатів обстежень, і тепер знову змушені тут проходити все знову та знову чекати. Також важливе питання, що в Польщі не можна обирати лікаря, як це часто відбувається в Україні.
Разом з тим лікування відбувається за міжнародними протоколами, тож загалом всюди однаковий підхід. Тут практикуються відеоконсультації лікарів з маленьких лікарень у великих містах, тож не варто боятися звернення до лікарні у невеликому місті.
Вартість лікування раку в клініках Польщі
Якщо ви застрахована особа, бо лікування безкоштовне. Однак часткова оплата може виникнути:
Доплата за деякі ліки, виписані за рецептом (це стандартна практика і для громадян Польщі).
Якщо ви обираєте лікування в клініці, яка не працює за контрактом з NFZ.
Специфічні процедури/ліки: у рідкісних випадках деякі новітні експериментальні методи або ліки можуть не покриватися стандартним пакетом NFZ.
Знайте свої права
Якщо у вас виникли якісь негативні ситуації, то в Польщі діє інститут Уповноваженого з прав пацієнтів (Rzecznik Praw Pacjenta), куди можна звернутися у разі проблем. Інформацію можна знайти на сайті https://www.gov.pl/web/rpp або уточнити на гарячій лінії NFZ.
The «Green Border» by Polish director Agnieszka Holland was released in Ukrainian cinemas. It premiered last year at the 80th Venice International Film Festival. The «Green Border» film received a special award from the jury. It was also given the title of the best Polish movie of the year. Mariia Gorska, the chief editor of the Sestry.eu portal, met with Agnieszka Holland on the eve of the movie’s premiere at the Venice festival. To your attention - an interview with the outstanding Polish film director, that was first published on the portal on September 22 2023.
We’re meeting in Lady Agnieska’s old apartment in Warsaw. A live legend opens the doors for me. I brought white lilies to thank her for the movie about Holodomor [«The Price of Truth» premiered in February 2019 at the Berlin International Film Festival. - Edit]. We sat at a table underneath the painting «Saturn Devouring His Son» by Francisco Goya. I show Lady Holland the movie trailer that I brought on a flash drive from Ukraine. This is a part of the working material for the film saga about the writer Stanisław Vincenz - Homer of the Hutsuls. We were filming this movie in the Carpathians with a Polish-Ukrainian team before the war.
From the Polish side, Lady Holland’s friends were working on the movie about the author of the Hutsul epic «On the High Uplands» - among them were film director Jan Kidawa-Błoński, camera operator Łukasz Hutt and other artists. I often see their group photos from protests for democracy in Warsaw on Facebook. Oleg Drach was supposed to play Vincenz in our movie. He also appears in Holland’s latest movie «Green Border». We watch the trailer for the movie about Vincenz where I’m playing as his wife. In the finale, we are fleeing by foot through the snowy Carpathian mountains from the Soviet occupation with our children and a suitcase. I’m thinking about the plans impeded by the war and all the displaced people like me.
Mariia Gorska and Agnieszka Holland
We’re drinking strong black coffee, eating chocolate and talking. About tyrants and the nature of evil, about Ukrainian cinematography and helping the people on the frontlines. And also about the movie by the prominent director, «Green Border» which tells the story of how Putin and Lukashenko used migrants as weapons.
Mariia Gorska: Your previous film - «The Price of Truth» - is about a journalist who wanted to tell the world the truth about Holodomor in Ukraine more than anything. During the filming of «Green Border» you’ve worked as a journalist yourself. In preparation for the film, your team conducted hundreds of interviews with activists, border security, doctors, policemen and refugees. What’s it like to work on a problem that we’re still seeing on news reports on our TV screens?
Agnieszka Holland: From this point of view, this is a unique movie. Usually, artistic films tell stories about things that have already happened, that have been «frozen in amber», so to speak. Obviously, the situation is different in the case of the full-scale invasion - both today and back when the war started in Donbas after the annexation of Crimea. Ukrainian filmmakers were quick to react to that. I have had the impression that the world is standing on the edge of an abyss for a long time now. And if we don’t build a bridge over this void we will fall into it.
I’m just doing what I do best - movies that display danger, are shocking and impressive, movies that enable the viewer to understand and experience something on a deeper level
What issues, important for the viewer and for you as an artist, are raised in «Green Border»?
It is taboo to talk about what’s happening on the border between Poland and Belarus. Terrible things are happening there that cast Polish official services in a less than favorable light. We on the other hand talk about it aloud. It is about the fear of the «Other», who will suddenly come and disrupt our comfort zone. We fear such people, we fear the unfamiliar, we fear poverty, we fear otherness - different skin colour, different religion, different smells. We fear that they (refugees) will come and take away our comfort, our habits, our culture.
This fear is so potent that populist politicians, who are oftentimes autocratic and even totalitarian like Putin, exploit it. He sensed that the European Union is wealthy, rich and somewhat lazy - and it's very easy to destabilise it with this refugee threat. Populist politicians say: «We will stop them! But others (the opposition) will let them in and then this horde will overwhelm you! And these are terrible people - they spread germs and parasites, they hate women, they rape, they are pedophiles, zoophiles, terrorists.»
These migrants are so dehumanised that they cease to be seen as human beings in the eyes of many nations. And in such a situation, anything can be done to them, isn’t that so? We have already gone through this in the past and the recent history. When someone is not seen as human to us, but just as a cockroach, it becomes no problem to destroy them. This is what I’m afraid of.
I'm afraid that if we don't stop now, we'll be moving towards acceptance of extinction. That's what my movie is about
This movie caused an outrage in Polish mass media…
During the time of PiS (Law and Justice) government, state media didn't like me. They said, "The script was written by Putin and directed by Lukashenko," suggesting that I serve Putin and Lukashenko. To some extent, it's true because the script for this story was indeed written by Putin and Lukashenko directed it. Representatives of the free world in the European Union, like us, are assigned certain roles – just like refugees. However, the question remains open: which roles will we choose and whom will we play in this terrible mystery?
150 million people are fleeing from war, climate change and starvation - they are knocking on Europe’s door. What could be done to resolve this situation?
There are two options: either we become mass murderers, start bombing the boats in the Mediterranean Sea, install machine guns at the Belarussian border and start shooting, or we come up with something that will enable us to coexist and help each other.
A frame from «Green Border» by Holland. Photo: Agata Kubis / Kino Świat
The Poles have opened their homes and their hearts to Ukrainians who were fleeing the Russian war. What is your view on this?
The Poles were profoundly emotional when the full-scale invasion began.
People weren’t helping just to post photos on Instagram; they genuinely invested their time and money and sometimes even took risks by travelling deep into Ukraine. Many of my friends went there
They transported refugees, body armor for soldiers, medicine and animals. This was sincere and profound assistance that remains an important memory.
And when some PiS politician comes later and says that Ukrainians are ungrateful, I want to slap him in the face. Helping someone and demanding gratitude is a complete lack of class.
Ukraine is grateful to you! I would also like to thank you, Lady Holland, and Poland for your support. Has there been any story that has touched you personally?
We became good friends with Sasha Kostina’s family, the producer of «Pamfir» [a 2022 Ukrainian movie about a man’s return to his home village where he is forced to encounter the smuggling business that he tried to escape from for many years once again. - Edit.]. They’ve lived at our home in Brittany for a couple of months. It was a difficult time; everyone was in shock and had psychological trauma. They adopted a tiny baby from a hospital for premature babies. We were all with that little girl and a very kind and good boy, Timur, who was also born prematurely. I saw their suffering.
I used to be an emigrant myself, in Paris, many years ago. During martial law, I was abroad and suddenly found myself cut off from my family, with nothing but a suitcase. Since I had given several interviews against the regime, I couldn't return. That first year was very difficult until I managed to bring my daughter home. Therefore, I fully understand what such people feel. Those who fled from the occupied territories and have nowhere to return to, and those from Kyiv, Kharkiv, or Odesa, who live in constant stress.
Have you seen «Pamfir»?
Yes, I have. I saw this motion picture in 2022 in Cannes. Very powerful. I have also watched some other very good new Ukrainian movies, such as «Klondike» and «Butterfly Vision».
As an expert at the Ukrainian State Film Agency, I read the script for «Butterfly Vision». Maksym Nakonechnyi is a very talented young director, and Iryna Tsilyk wrote a powerful script. By the way, she is one of the authors of our online magazine «Sisters».
Me and Iryna are good friends. In 2022, we were on the documentary film jury at Cannes.
A frame from a teaser of the movie about Stanisław Vincenz
She probably told you about life in wartime Kyiv, which somewhat resembles Warsaw during the Warsaw Uprising [Agnieszka Holland’s mother, journalist Irena Rybczyńska-Holland, participated in the Warsaw Uprising. - Edit.]. Why does history repeat itself?
It’s because we haven’t learned anything. When I was filming movies about World War II (three of which are about the Holocaust), people asked me: «Why are you making movies on this subject? It’s nothing but history». And I would reply that I make them because I have the impression that this is not just history, that this threat can awaken at any time, and that the Holocaust was a kind of a vaccine for Europe and the world, but this vaccine has stopped working. It has passed, and we as humanity are once again ready for any crimes, horrors and tortures of apocalyptic scale.
Massive casualties, weaponised sexual violence, tortures and murders of thousands of city and village residents - today we’re observing the same things once again: in Izium, Kharkiv, Kherson and towns on the outskirts of Kyiv. What is this phenomenon of Putin and modern Russia, in your opinion? How could such cruelty and savagery be explained in this day and age?
This can only be explained by the nature of evil.
Humanity is inclined toward the evil. Nothing can hold back the evil’s potential if the mechanism is set running even by a single human being
It seemed as though there would no longer be any wars like the First or Second World Wars after the invention of the atomic bomb and other methods of remote warfare. But what is happening in Ukraine right now, what this frontline looks like, reminds me of the First World War. They sit in trenches on one side, they sit in trenches on the other side, advance by a kilometre, mine the area. It feels as though it’s not happening right now, as if it’s not real and as if it’s some kind of a historical reconstruction.
I have the same impression. The distance in time between today and World War II seems to have shortened with Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. I am currently reading Remarque. And when I scroll through my social media, seeing photos from the frontline, from the trenches, it feels as if the book is coming to life - pure horror.
And at the same time, life goes on as usual just 500km away. And after the initial strong emotions passed, no one even turns on the TV when the news about the war is on.
What are your thoughts on Putin? If you had to make a movie about him, what would be in it? What makes 120 million Russians obey him?
I think it is due to his confidence and voluntarism. Most of the 20th century’s tyrants weren’t great people. Hitler was a pathetic little manchild, Stalin was some kind of a tiny «beak-nosed» Georgian. I'm not just talking about physical traits, but also about the fact that they didn't have any unusual intellectual qualities. They all had some kind of psychopathy.
I believe Putin could also be labelled as a psychopath, a clinical narcissist. Such people become truly dangerous when they push the button that forces everyone to follow them. Just like the Pied Piper, right?
The Pied Piper plays the flute, and people, as if enchanted, follow him, believing that he will lead them to a place where they will be happy. In a sense, Putin is a copy of Stalin, but he is less interesting than the original. He is a disgusting person who does a lot of evil. The world would be a better place if he were to disappear from it.
There are still leaders in Europe who seek agreements with Russia. Pope Francis addresses Russian Catholic youth as the heirs of a great Russia, a country of outstanding culture and humanity. However, Russian culture is an imperial culture, and the history of this country is soaked in blood. Why are some Europeans still oblivious to this fact? And what will become of Russia in the future?
It’s common among world leaders to think that Russia is too big to leave behind. It’s not going anywhere so they believe they need to find ways to live with it and build relationships in such a manner that it becomes more beneficial for Russia to be peaceful. This was the plan, wasn’t it? Only later did it become clear that they were acting irrationally. All authoritarian regimes, especially those led by one person with a personality cult, do not act rationally. For them maintaining power is more important than the economic situation, the welfare, or the happiness of their citizens. These things are secondary. The citizens of an authoritarian country do not need wealth and happiness. They need to be forced into believing that only this particular leader, only this dictator, will save them and lead them to a better world.
Russia is a terrible country. And it is terribly unhappy. After all, the victims of all these Russian tyrants are the Russians themselves.
Mariia Gorska as Irene Vincenz
What else can we do to make Putin lose in Ukraine? Russia's mobilisation potential is enormous. They are prepared for a prolonged war and to inundate the entire world with the bodies of their soldiers.
A nuclear button can only be neutralised by another nuclear button. The crisis of Western democracy lies in the politicians’ lack of long-term perspective. Not so long ago, it was said that they act from election to election. Now, I believe, they’re just acting from poll to poll. And Putin is counting on this.
The danger is that this could stabilise and become trivialised as a conflict that simultaneously seems active and suppressed. This could drag on for years. But then the question arises: what country could endure this - and how would people withstand it?
This war must end! Not smolder - so that people don’t have to live as if they are on a volcano that’s about to explode
Ukraine needs larger amounts of money and high-end weaponry. And Western politicians must close their eyes to the fact that these weapons will be used beyond Ukrainian territory.
We’ve received major military support thanks to our friends like the Poles.
It is a «win-win» situation that benefits all of us - both Ukrainians and Poles. And when two sovereign nations work together, building trust and cooperation, the whole humanity benefits from it. This is especially important in the case of Poland and Ukraine due to our geopolitical situation. We share a common enemy and a common threat - Russia. Even if Putin disappears tomorrow, there is no guarantee that another head of the hydra won't emerge, is there? And there are no guarantees that the Russian people will be able to organise themselves in a democratic, non-imperial way. Therefore, we are compelled to cooperate. For us Poles, Ukraine is a guardian of our independence. On the other hand, without Poland, Ukraine will not enter Europe. We are Ukraine’s neighbours and one of its closest allies.
Many Ukrainian women, scattered around the world because of the war, read our magazine. What do you think of these women? What would you like to tell them?
You, Ukrainian women, have every right to fight for your life, your dignity, your children and your future. Do not let yourselves be oppressed and don’t think that you are not entitled to anything. Your compatriots, on the other hand, should understand that in the countries where they find themselves, people live differently. Therefore, Ukrainian women should also open their hearts and be sensitive to the identity, needs and traditions of those welcoming them.
What would you say to the residents of countries accepting Ukrainian refugees?
I would say that you should just help the people in need coming your way.
This dimension of help - human, personal, the most intimate - is the most important, for it builds the strongest bonds
On its course into the EU, Ukraine is forced to develop democracy amidst war. Poland travelled this path a long time ago - «Solidarity’s» victory inspired people on the Maidan. But your democracy is also threatened. Together, what can we do to protect our values?
We should keep an eye the hands of the politicians. We cannot let ourselves be fooled by fairytales, both in Ukraine and Poland. It is difficult because it is much easier to lie, manipulate and spread propaganda.
Politicians are not ashamed to use new technologies and let the genie out of the bottle by doing so. Soon, an ordinary human will not be able to distinguish the truth from lies
Social, not political institutions for truth research that will equip people with tools to distinguish truth from fake news should be created. And people should start doing it while they are still in school.
This sounds like a task for people like Gareth Jones, but is there anyone like that in the modern world?
Of course.
What world are we going to live in after the war?
We are going to heal our wounds and rebuild ourselves. There will be positive reconstruction energy, though there will also be much trauma, suffering and mourning. Europe and Ukrainians in particular will need a lot of optimistic enthusiasm.
It is important that this does not turn into a sense of inevitability described by Timothy Snyder. After the Second World War, it seemed as though the greatest trials were already behind us, but it turned out that evil still lurks among us and tends to its wounds.
It’s true.
Snyder also wrote about twenty lessons from the 20th century on tyranny. Which lesson is the most important to you?
The fact that there is no vaccine for tyranny. The worst-case scenarios will inevitably reoccur.
But you are an optimist! During the last hundred years, humanity, civilisation and human rights have evolved tremendously!
Yes, human rights have expanded. Social groups deprived of all rights have gradually gained them, and now humanity has become more inclusive. It even includes the welfare and rights of animals and plants.
So then, perhaps, we do have the chance to build a safer world?
This is a utopia. We are moving forward in small steps, but it's not a steady march. It's paroxysms: two steps forward, three steps back. Along this path, terrible events take place, suffering, torture and crimes occur. And then we move a little further again. This is not an optimistic path to a bright future; it's suffering and a struggle for every bit of freedom.
All of your movies are about moving beyond boundaries. What boundaries would you never cross?
The boundaries of humanity. We must always see a neighbour in another person. Of course, there are wars, when, for example, there's a Russian in front of us, and a soldier must shoot. But in all other situations, we cannot allow other people to become objects of hatred.
Thank you for this interview and for supporting Ukraine!
We are here to listen and collaborate with our community. Contact our editors if you have any questions, suggestions, or interesting ideas for articles.
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