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20
хв

Nataliya Hryshchenko, head of the Ukrainian association in Croatia: «It is important to feel that you are not alone»

«Svoja» - an association of Ukrainians in Croatia, which has brought together over three and a half thousand people. They help to find accommodation, employment, learn the language, validate diplomas, and provide informational, legal, and psychological support

Nataliia Zhukovska

The «Svoja» team. Photo: Private archive

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Croatians have warmly welcomed Ukrainians since the very first days of the full-scale war. According to official data, the country has taken in approximately 30 thousand Ukrainian refugees. Stress, language barriers, and lack of employment are just some of the challenges faced in a new country. In July 2022, several proactive Ukrainian women, who had overcome the tough path of adaptation themselves, decided to unite for a good cause. They established an organisation for their fellow countrymen called «Svoja», which has been actively helping those in need for three years now.

Iryna Pronenko: «I could not comprehend that war could happen twice in my life»

I come from Luhansk. I studied there, graduated from the Faculty of Psychology, and managed to work in my profession before 2014. As soon as the war began, my future husband and I left the city. We never wanted to live under Russian rule. In Luhansk, we left two apartments and all our belongings behind, embarking on a new life in Kharkiv. We invested our earnings in professional development and education because the situation in 2014 demonstrated that those with knowledge and experience had a better chance of finding employment. It took us eight years to build a new life and make something out of ourselves. By the time of the full-scale war, I was a managing partner of an HR consulting agency, and my husband had a psychological counselling practice. However, like in 2014, the war caught up with us again. In mid-March 2022, we decided to leave. Due to my husband’s disability, we both went abroad.

Iryna Pronenko: «The situation in 2014 showed that those with knowledge and experience had a better chance of finding employment». Photo: Private archive

We chose Montenegro, not knowing that fate would decide otherwise. Our route passed through Hungary and Serbia. However, when boarding a bus to Belgrade, the driver refused to let us on with our cat. We started looking for another way to get to Montenegro, and it led us through Zagreb. At that point, we had been on the road for five days.

We arrived in Zagreb on 17 March 2022. Perhaps due to exhaustion and the sense of peace, we decided to stay there.

On Facebook, I found a group helping Ukrainians in Croatia. I wrote that a couple with a cat was looking for accommodation. That same day, we received a reply: «We would be happy to host you»

Within a few days, I saw a social media announcement about free Croatian language courses. Over the next month and a half, I studied. Finding a job in Croatia was not easy, but I continued working remotely in Ukraine. Eventually, I met the head of the «Svoja» organisation, offered my help, and got involved in volunteering.

Iryna Pronenko at Croatian language courses. Photo: Private archive

I still help Ukrainians in Croatia with career counselling, setting up businesses, and job searches - such as writing CVs and preparing for interviews. Before us, no one else was doing this. With my beginner-level Croatian, I accompanied people to interviews. Later, when the association won a grant and began receiving funding, I was employed there as a specialist in employment and career consulting.

When the full-scale invasion began, I could not comprehend that war could happen twice in my life. There was an inner protest when you think, how many times must I start over?

In Croatia, it so happened that we created our own job. Its results are evident. Over two years, we have employed more than 500 people. For now, I do not plan to return to Ukraine - and I have nowhere to return to.

Tetyana Chernyshova: «It is very important to feel that you are not alone»

We are from Kyiv and, like many others, thought that the war would not last long - at most, three days. I remember sitting in the bomb shelter with my children. We have three. At that time, one daughter was eight years old, the other six. Our eldest was no longer living with us.

Tetyana Chernyshova’s daughters in a bomb shelter during the shelling of Kyiv. Photo: Private archive

On the second day of the full-scale war, my husband said: «We are leaving. You have half an hour to pack. Whatever you take is yours. We are heading to Western Ukraine». We had a huge argument because I thought it was inappropriate and unnecessary to leave home. I took documents, money, some belongings, and underwear for three days. For some reason, I was convinced that we would return within a week.

On the way, along the Zhytomyr highway, we saw a lot of military equipment. Missiles were being shot down overhead. The children asked: «Why are there fireworks during the day? You cannot even see them». From Kyiv to Zhytomyr, it took us about seven hours. The next day, we heard horrifying news that cars were burning on the Zhytomyr highway and that there were Russian tanks there. We reached the Slovakian border. We managed to find a place to stay in a student dormitory. A few days later, we decided to go abroad with the children. Friends invited us to Zagreb, Croatia. My husband stayed behind, and I went with the children to the pedestrian border crossing. In a queue over seven kilometres long, we stood for 12 hours.

After crossing the border, I panicked. My mind was in chaos. I called the woman who had invited us to Croatia. She fully coordinated us. The next day, we travelled by train to Budapest and from there to Zagreb. And again, we thought we would stay for a week at most - and then return home. However, on March 8th, our house near Kyiv was destroyed by an enemy projectile. It was a direct hit. All that was left of the house was a pile of rubble. That was the moment I understood the gravity of the situation. At first, I was like an animal trapped in a cage. Only later did I start going outside, exploring where the shops and hospitals were.

The children were very well received at the local school. Simultaneously, they studied online in Ukraine. One daughter immediately integrated into the group, while the other struggled. She cried every day and said: «Mum, I do not want to go to school. I do not understand what they are saying. They hug me, and I do not want to hug them».

Tetyana Chernyshova with her daughters. Photo: Private archive

Croatians are a kind and empathetic nation. They sympathised with us greatly because 30 years ago, they also experienced war and understand what it is like. I worked online as a lecturer in therapeutic physical education at Shevchenko University. However, we were eventually told that it was impossible to conduct lessons from abroad. I had to resign. Until I learned the Croatian language, I worked wherever I could - cleaning floors and toilets, babysitting. In March 2022, I accidentally met a Ukrainian woman named Nataliya, and later, we founded our association «Svoja». We decided to provide informational support to Ukrainians who found themselves displaced by the war.

When you are in a foreign country and do not know your rights, anything can happen. For example, there were cases where people were deceived about their wages at work

Today, I work as a waitress in a café near my home and my children’s school, and I volunteer at «Svoja». From my own experience, I know that people arriving in a new place often do not know where to start or how to proceed. As for my adaptation, I have learned the language and gained some understanding of how to survive here. However, I still feel like a stranger in a foreign country.

Nataliya Hryshchenko, Head of the Ukrainian Association in Croatia: «For us, «Svoja» is one of our own»

We established «Svoja» in July 2022. At that time, it was not easy for anyone who had found temporary refuge in Croatia. We lived without unpacking our suitcases, waiting to return home the next day. Unfortunately, that did not happen. So, we decided to create our own community called «Svoja». To gain people’s trust, it was necessary to officially register the organisation. We were fortunate to meet the «Solidarna» Foundation, which supported us both legally and financially. They provided us with our first grant, registered a fund to support Ukrainians, and acted as our mentors.

Nataliya Hryshchenko: «We managed to create a community of Ukrainians who use our services». Photo: Private archive

Today, our core team consists of four people brought together by chance. Each of us has our own area of focus. We managed to build a community of Ukrainians who use our services, comprising over three and a half thousand people.

It is very important to feel that you are not alone. By helping others, we help ourselves cope with the pain that the war inflicts on all of us

First and foremost, we provide informational support. Our main focus areas are employment and education. We collaborate with the local employment fund. We have a database of people who contact us and respond to their requests quickly. There is no bureaucracy with us. We work with over 70 employers who provide us with job openings. We also cooperate with legal firms that support refugees. Additionally, we assist Ukrainians in validating their diplomas. The number of people seeking our services grows every year. People want to work in their professions and receive fair pay.

During a meeting at «Svoja». Photo: Private archive

We also work in the field of human rights protection. We collaborate with the Ombudsman of the Republic of Croatia and have even had to seek their assistance. For example, 20 kilometres from Zagreb, there is a settlement of Ukrainians where there was no family doctor after the previous one resigned. This is a significant issue for Croatia, which lacks two thousand doctors. We wrote a collective appeal to the Ombudsman, who addressed the issue through the Ministry of Health.

Additionally, we organise language courses. So far, over 200 people have completed our programmes. From January 2025, we plan to introduce a Croatian language course specifically for medical professionals. We have also established an IT community that offers training sessions. Currently, we are running a course on artificial intelligence. Moreover, we provide regular psychological support lectures.

There are requests for psychological, physical, and even material support. Recently, we collected items and food for people who had just arrived from Ukraine. Their numbers continue to grow. Last year, according to official data, there were 22,900 Ukrainians in Croatia; by 2024, this number had risen to over 27 thousand.

Finding us is simple - we have our own website and are also active on Facebook, Telegram and YouTube.

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A TV host, journalist and author of over three thousand materials on various subjects, including some remarkable journalist investigations that led to changes in local governments. She also writes about tourism, science and health. She got into journalism by accident over 20 years ago. She led her personal projects on the UTR TV channel, worked as a reporter for the news service and at the ICTV channel for over 12 years. While working she visited over 50 countries. Has exceptional skills in storytelling and data analysis. Worked as a lecturer at the NAU’s International Journalism faculty. She is enrolled in the «International Journalism» postgraduate study program: she is working on a dissertation covering the work of Polish mass media during the Russian-Ukrainian war.

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Українці сьогодні ставлять собі обґрунтоване запитання: хто відбудовуватиме Україну, якщо біженці не повернуться? В умовах драматичної демографічної ситуації це питання звучить особливо болісно. Проте останні дані з Польщі хоч і можуть на перший погляд занепокоїти, насправді розповідають іншу історію — не про втрату, а про неймовірну силу та потенціал, що гартується на чужині й чекає на свій час.

Звіт компанії Deloitte про становище українських біженців у Польщі змальовує картину надзвичайної стійкості й рішучості. Пам'ятаймо, про кого ми говоримо. Це не анонімна міграція. Це насамперед українські жінки й діти. Аж 67% домогосподарств утримують самотні жінки, які в чужій країні взяли на свої плечі долю всієї родини, борючись із травмою війни та щоденною непевністю щодо долі близьких. Їхня здатність стати на ноги та знайти роботу в таких складних умовах є першим потужним доказом сили українського духу.

Доказ цінності, а не аргумент залишатися

Внесок українців у польську економіку вражає. У 2024 році вони додали до польського ВВП аж 2,7%, що відповідає сумі майже 99 мільярдів злотих доданої вартості

Завдяки сплаченим українцями податкам і внескам доходи державного бюджету зросли на 2,94%. Ці цифри не слід сприймати як втрату для України. Навпаки — це твердий доказ величезної цінності українського людського капіталу. Доказ того, що українці навіть у несприятливих умовах здатні творити, будувати й робити величезний внесок у розвиток. А отже, можна зробити висновок, що цей самий людський капітал може стати ключовим ресурсом у процесі відбудови вільної України.

Ба більше, аналіз спростовує міф про нібито конкуренцію. Дані показують, що в повітах, де частка біженців у зайнятості зросла на один відсотковий пункт, зайнятість громадян Польщі зросла на 0,5%, а безробіття знизилося на 0,3%. Виявилося, що присутність українських працівників стала для польської економіки стимулом до підвищення продуктивності й дала полякам можливість перейти на краще оплачувані та більш відповідальні посади.

Надзвичайно промовистим є також професійне зростання самих українців. Медіана їхньої заробітної плати протягом двох років зросла з 3100 злотих до 4000 злотих нетто, наблизившись до рівня 84% медіани по країні. Це доказ не лише рішучості, але й блискавичної адаптації. Не менш важливим є той факт, що біженці переважно утримують себе самі. Дослідження UNHCR за 2024 рік показують, що аж 80% доходів у їхніх домогосподарствах походять від праці. Соціальні виплати, переважно 800+ на дітей, становлять лише 14% їхніх доходів, і ця частка не зросла попри підвищення суми виплати. 

Це один з найшвидших процесів економічної інтеграції в історії сучасних міграцій у Європі

Цю картину співпраці, яка приносить користь обом сторонам, підтверджують не лише аналітики. Її можна почути й у голосах польських підприємців, які щодня бачать, як нова енергія живить їхні компанії.

«Польща перебуває в комфортній ситуації, бо вона не лише допомагає людям у потребі, а й заробляє завдяки їхній праці. Рідко трапляється, щоб у такому масштабі етика йшла пліч-о-пліч з прагматизмом», — коментує власник польської фірми, яка працевлаштовує чимало працівників з України, переважно жінок. Він просить зберегти анонімність, бо «останні голоси від нового мешканця Бельведеру вказують на інший напрямок».

Слова підприємця чудово віддзеркалюють парадокс, у якому опинилася Польща. Його прохання про анонімність не є випадковим. У періоди виборчих кампаній побоювання, пов'язані з міграцією, стають легким політичним паливом для частини політичної сцени. Гасла про нібито «відбирання робочих місць» чи «надмірне навантаження на бюджет» хоч і суперечать реальним даним, часом свідомо використовуються для мобілізації електорату. Це створює атмосферу невизначеності, в якій навіть позитивні економічні факти відсуваються на другий план гучнішим, негативним наративом.

Скарб, що чекає на розкриття — в Україні

Однак найважливіший висновок зі звіту — це величезний, досі не використаний потенціал. Аж 40% біженців працездатного віку мають вищу освіту, але лише 12% з них працюють на посадах, що вимагають таких кваліфікацій (порівняно з 37% серед поляків). Основні бар'єри:

  • Мова: Лише 18% біженців заявляють про вільне володіння польською мовою.
  • Регуляції: У регульованих професіях, як-от лікар чи архітектор, працюють лише 3,6% біженців (серед поляків — 10,6%).
  • Громадянство: Багато професій у державному секторі (наприклад, вчитель, медсестра, медичний рятувальник) залишаються формально закритими для осіб без польського паспорта незалежно від їхньої фактичної кваліфікації.

Аналітики підрахували, що якби Польща розблокувала бодай половину цього потенціалу, її економіка отримала б щонайменше 6 мільярдів злотих на рік, з яких понад 2,5 мільярди надійшли б безпосередньо до держбюджету. Це сума, порівняна з великою податковою реформою.

Парадокс інтеграції

Сьогодні працевлаштовано 69% дорослих біженців працездатного віку, а серед жінок цей показник становить 70% — лише на 2 відсоткові пункти менше, ніж серед польок. Однак проблеми починаються у віковій групі 25-39 років, де українські матері працюють значно рідше через брак системної підтримки у догляді за малими дітьми.

Цікаво, що дані демонструють певний парадокс. З одного боку, професійна інтеграція та знаходження нормальної роботи призводять до того, що біженці рідше планують повернення в Україну. З іншого боку — доступ до освіти та державних послуг, тобто соціальна інтеграція, збільшує готовність до повернення, оскільки дає відчуття стабільності й здатність свідомо планувати майбутнє. Це означає, що, допомагаючи людям знайти себе в суспільстві, їх не обов’язково «відбирають» в України — радше дають їм сили для ухвалення свідомого рішення про повернення, коли це стане можливим.

Саме досвід, здобутий за кордоном, може стати безцінною інвестицією в майбутнє. Це знання стандартів ЄС, ділові контакти, нові навички. Це капітал, який повернеться в Україну разом з людьми — майбутніми підприємцями та лідерами відбудови.

Однак у всіх цих дебатах про відсотки ВВП та стратегії найрідше чути голос тих, кого це стосується найбільше. Їхнє почуття безпеки крихке, бо залежить не лише від економічної стабільності, а й від соціальної атмосфери. А вона в свою чергу буває отруєна політичною грою, в якій гасла на кшталт «час закінчити з преференціями» чи «захист кордонів від напливу чужинців» стають інструментом для здобуття підтримки. Це відчуття «небажаного гостя» найкраще передає допис з форуму української діаспори:

«Якщо ти біженка, яка втратила все, що нажила за життя, чоловік пішов на фронт, а ти з дітьми мусила панічно тікати за кордон і день у день живеш питанням, чи буде до чого і до кого повертатися, чи все ж залишитися в Польщі, бо тут поки що безпечно, хоча дедалі частіше відчуваєш, що ти тут небажана гостя (...) то чи почувалася б ти в безпеці?»

Ці слова нагадують, що ключем до всього є перемога та створення в Україні безпечного, справедливого і перспективного майбутнього. Це сила, яка може повернутися і в майбутньому живити Україну. Однак, ключовим буде створення умов, які дозволять цим людям безпечно жити й використовувати здобутий досвід у власній країні.

20
хв

Сила, що чекає на повернення: українці в Польщі — не втрачений, а загартований потенціал для відбудови

Єжи Вуйцік

Joanna Mosiej: I would like to begin our conversation with your family history, because on many levels it serves as a metaphor for our Polish-Ukrainian relations. I am referring to your ancestors, the Szeptycki brothers. Roman (Andrey Sheptytsky - head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Metropolitan of Galicia, Archbishop of Lviv (1901–1944) - Edit.) converted to the Greek Catholic faith, entered a monastery, and later became Metropolitan. Another brother, Stanisław, first served in the Austrian army, and after the war became a general in the Polish army. Both were patriots, individuals deeply devoted to the countries they served. And they maintained a fraternal bond.

Professor Andrzej Szeptycki: Of the five Szeptycki brothers, two identified themselves as Ukrainians - Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky and Blessed Father Klymentiy - and three were Poles. I am referring to General Stanisław Szeptycki and also his brothers, Aleksander and my great-grandfather Leon. Metropolitan Andrey and Father Klymentiy regularly came on holiday to rest at the family home in Prylbichi in the Yavoriv district, where my great-grandfather Leon Szeptycki later lived. Despite their national differences, they maintained good relations with each other until the end of their lives.

Professor Andrzej Szeptycki. Photo: Michal Zebrowski / East News

They proved to us that different national identities can coexist without excluding one another.

I believe it was also very important that in the case of each of them, national identity was a significant element of life, but not the only one. In the case of Metropolitan Andrey and Father Klymentiy, their vocation and religious choices were primary as clergy. General Stanisław Szeptycki, as a soldier of that time, first served in the Austro-Hungarian and then in the Polish army and sought to serve his country well. They were certainly patriots - of each nation with which they identified. On the other hand, it is very important that they were certainly not nationalists. And this allowed them to respect different views while remaining close to one another.

Was such a legacy, a borderland identity, a value or a curse for your family? How does it define you?

During the communist period, it was somewhat of a challenge, a burden. The communist authorities viewed representatives of the former noble class negatively. In the case of the Szeptycki family, this was further combined with a very strong propaganda narrative directed against Ukrainians in Poland. And, of course, directed personally against Metropolitan Andrey, who was portrayed as a Ukrainian nationalist and spiritual father of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. During the communist period, and even in the 1990s, relatives quite regularly heard that Szeptycki is a Banderite». Nowadays, this has practically disappeared. I experienced this myself in 2023 when I was running an election campaign. The few voter reactions to my name were generally positive. In this sense, it is a significant change.

Apart from comments on social media, of course.

Yes, there I am often called Szeptycki - a Ukrainian, a Banderite. And surely there is a portion of society that will always react in this way. Returning to how it defines me, ever since our student years, my cousins and I have quite often travelled around Ukraine.

Some of us needed only one trip, while others stayed longer, for life. My cousin moved to Lviv a few years ago at the age of 50. Another cousin established the Szeptycki Family Foundation, which became actively involved in supporting Ukraine after February 24th 2022.

Photo: Karina Krystosiak/REPORTER

How do you explain this outburst of solidarity among us in 2022?

I believe there are three important factors. Firstly, the simple human need to help. Altruism which arises when we witness the suffering of others and react without much consideration.

Secondly, the shared experience of Russian imperialism. This has always resonated with Polish society. It is worth recalling the Polish response to the war in Chechnya - the reception of refugees, the clear sympathies. Or the year 2008 and the war in Georgia. Poland does not have strong cultural or geographical ties with Georgia, yet the reaction was vivid. We remember President Lech Kaczyński’s visit to Tbilisi and his prophetic words: today Georgia, tomorrow Ukraine, the day after, perhaps the Baltic states, and then Poland. But most importantly - and in my opinion decisively - is the fact that none of this arose in a vacuum. This solidarity did not suddenly sprout in a desert, but on rather fertile ground which Poles and Ukrainians had been cultivating together over the past three decades.

From the 1990s, both sides carried out considerable work to develop interpersonal contacts. In 2022, many Poles were not helping «refugees». We were, for the most part, simply helping friends

Keeping in mind the great importance of the prior presence of Ukrainian refugees who had arrived in Poland since 2014, economic migrants from Ukraine, and the Ukrainian minority, primarily descendants of the victims of Operation Vistula.

Of course. Since the beginning of the war, that is, since 2014, or even since 2004, the Ukrainian minority in Poland has played an important role in supporting Ukraine - collecting funds, purchasing equipment, sending that equipment to the frontline. And receiving Ukrainian military refugees after February 24th 2022. Undoubtedly, the role of this community cannot be overestimated.

Precisely. You have been researching Polish-Ukrainian relations for many years. How have they changed? How has the Poles’ perception of Ukrainians changed?

It has been a long process. From the establishment of mutual contacts in the 1990s, through the Orange Revolution, the Revolution of Dignity - up to 2022. And, on the other hand, through the long-term presence in Poland of a significant group of economic migrants from Ukraine. Let us not forget that none of this would have been possible without the consistency of Poland’s Eastern policy and the legacy of the thought of the Paris-based «Kultura» and Jerzy Giedroyc personally. This belief in the importance of Ukraine, the importance of good relations, the necessity of support.

We were the first country to recognise Ukraine’s independence.

And it is worth mentioning a very important, albeit little-known, moment in Polish-Ukrainian relations on the eve of the USSR’s collapse, namely the participation of the Polish delegation of civic committees in the 1st Congress of the People’s Movement in Kyiv in 1989. The presence of representatives of the Polish civic committees, including Adam Michnik and Bogdan Borusewicz, was a symbolic gesture of support for Ukraine from Polish «Solidarity» at a time when Poland was still part of the Warsaw Pact and Ukraine still within the USSR.

Photo: Łukasz Gdak/East News

And what were the subsequent milestones of our cooperation?

First and foremost, the three key events of the past two decades, which I have already mentioned: the Orange Revolution, the Revolution of Dignity, and the full-scale Russian invasion in 2022. Each of these was met in Poland with clear public interest and a broad response of solidarity.

A sense of shared destiny, the legacy of Solidarity and the struggle for independence played an important role. At times, analogies were even drawn: it was said that Ukrainians in 2022 found themselves in a situation similar to that faced by Poles during the Second World War. The exhibition «Warsaw - Mariupol: cities of ruins, cities of struggle, cities of hope» was one such attempt to draw this symbolic parallel: cities levelled to the ground, the suffering of civilians, resistance. But it was also accompanied by another, no less important conviction: that Ukrainians today are facing something we, fortunately, are not experiencing - a classic violent conflict with Russian imperialism. And this solidarity manifested itself in Polish assistance.

What can we do to ensure this unprecedented solidarity seen in 2022 is not wasted? Today, in addition to the demons of the past, such as Volyn’ and the issue of exhumations, there are pressing social and economic problems.

Firstly, it is important to realise that no surge of solidarity lasts forever. The enthusiasm for Ukrainians that erupted after the beginning of the Russian invasion has gradually waned, and we are now in a phase where tension and fatigue are beginning to accumulate.

For most of its recent history, Poland has been a country of emigration - people left in search of work, bread, a better life. The issue of immigration was virtually absent from public debate. Today, the situation has changed. Around two million Ukrainians live in Poland - both economic migrants and people who fled the war. This is an entirely new social reality and a challenge to which we must respond consciously. Other challenges, including economic ones, must also be taken into account.

The pandemic, war and inflation - all of these influence the public sentiment. When people start running out of money, their willingness to show solidarity with «new neighbours» may weaken

Especially since they are constantly exposed to populist narratives claiming that immigrants take away our social benefits and our places in the queue for doctors. And that Ukraine does not agree to exhumations.

Yes, this is precisely why Polish-Ukrainian relations are no longer merely a matter of the past, but one of the key challenges for the future of Central and Eastern Europe. It is therefore important to defuse historical disputes, such as those concerning exhumations. It is very good that an agreement has recently been reached on this issue. Even if discussions on exhumations in the short term revive the Volyn’ issue, in the long term they will help resolve it. However, it is important to recognise - and I say this quite often to both Polish and Ukrainian partners - that at present, the key issue is not history. A major challenge lies in the broad economic matters related to Ukraine’s accession to the European Union.

We must recognise that Ukraine is not a failed state from which only unskilled workers or refugees come to Poland.

Despite the war, Ukraine has advantages in many areas that will pose a challenge to Poland when it joins the EU single market

Of course, Ukraine's accession to the EU is in Poland’s strategic interest. However, these are developments that we must be aware of, which we must closely observe and take action to prevent conflicts in these areas.

Therefore, at present, the real challenge is not the issue of the Volyn’ massacre, but rather how to adapt the common agricultural policy to the potential of Ukrainian agriculture. Naturally, it is also essential to prevent the escalation of social antagonism.

Photo: Jakub Orzechowski / Agencja Wyborcza.pl

How does Polish-Ukrainian academic cooperation appear against this background?

Today, around 9% of students at Polish universities are international, almost half of whom are Ukrainian. The academic world, in line with its longstanding European tradition, is multinational. Universities have always been places of openness and tolerance; today, they develop programmes for support, equality and diversity. These are initiatives and responsibilities undertaken by the universities themselves.

Of course, there are always areas that can be improved. I am thinking, for example, of efforts to achieve better integration within the university. It often happens that we have two or three student communities living separately – students from Poland, English-speaking students and students from the East, mainly Ukrainians and Belarusians. We are working to ensure that these two or three communities come closer together.

You are responsible for international cooperation. In Ukraine, claims are heard that Poland is «draining» its intellectual capital. This is a well-known phenomenon here too - for years, it has been said that the best Polish academics leave for the West. What does this circulation between Poland and Ukraine look like?

Before February 24th 2022, around 500 Ukrainian academics worked in Polish universities. After the outbreak of war, this number doubled. Initially, there were special support measures - help with finding housing, work, a safe place - but quite quickly we realised that a change of perspective was needed.

Our goal is not a brain drain, but a brain circulation - a circulation of knowledge, ideas and experience

This is precisely why today, as a ministry, we support projects involving researchers and institutions from both countries. Those that build a joint research space.

A concrete example of such cooperation is the project of Vasyl Stefanyk Precarpathian National University in Ivano-Frankivsk, which, together with the Centre for East European Studies, rebuilt the pre-war university observatory «White Elephant» on Mount Pip Ivan. A functioning research station was created from ruins. Now the two universities are seeking funding for a telescope, the third stage of the project. This is an example of concrete cooperation based on partnership, not asymmetry.

Another example is Mykulychyn, a village in the Ukrainian Carpathians, where a Polish-Ukrainian youth meeting centre is being built. During my recent visit there, the first meeting took place with the participation of students from several Ukrainian universities and the University of Warsaw. It is in such places - in conversations, debates, joint projects - that the next generation of mutual understanding is born.

There is a real chance that this generation will get to know each other not through stereotypes, but through experience and culture.

Yes, but much work still lies ahead. I remember a study conducted, I believe, in 2021. Poles were asked which Ukrainian authors they knew, and Ukrainians were asked which Polish authors they knew. It turned out that 95% of Poles had never read a book by a Ukrainian author - and vice versa. What followed was even more interesting. Ukrainians associated Polish authors with Sienkiewicz and Sapkowski, while Poles named Gogol and Oksana Zabuzhko among Ukrainian authors. In terms of getting to know one another, including through culture, we still have much work to do.

But it is also important not to reduce each other to a kind of ethno-folklore, because we have much more to offer one another. We are united by common aspirations and hopes. And commonality does not always arise from similarity. It also arises from the desire to coexist despite differences and wounds.

20
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Poland and Ukraine: we want to coexist despite differences and wounds

Joanna Mosiej

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