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Olga Rudneva: «The biggest fear of our superhumans - to tell their mother they lost a limb»

The Superhumans Center is a full-fledged rehabilitation town, where over a hundred complex reconstructive surgeries have been performed and 550 prosthetics have been installed over the course of this year.

Nataliia Zhukovska

Olga Rudneva, CEO of Superhumans Center. Photo: private archive

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Superhumans, «supers» - that’s what patients are called in the Superhumans rehabilitation centre. This modern clinic specialises in prosthetics, rehabilitation, reconstructive surgery, and psychological support for injured military personnel and civilians. All services are provided to patients free of charge. The facility operates on donations, including from Ukrainian benefactors. Sestry spoke with the CEO of the Superhumans Center, Olga Rudnieva, about the facility's capabilities, current challenges, and the prospects for prosthetics and reconstruction development in Ukraine.

For us, there are no problems. There are challenges.

Nataliia Zhukovska: Olga, the Superhumans Center can host up to 70 monthly patients.  How are you managing with today’s influx of patients?

Olga Rudneva: According to our plan, we were supposed to have up to 50 monthly prosthetic, rehabilitation, and psychological support patients. But we understand that the queue is quite large, and it’s not getting any smaller. Currently, there are over 800 patients on our waiting list. Therefore we’ve raised the monthly amount of patients to 70.

I think we could take in even a hundred patients but it would be financially difficult. After all, this is quite an expensive undertaking.

For example, fifty patients cost over a million dollars just for prosthetic components. And that’s assuming we supply all of them with only basic mechanical prosthetics. However, many people receive things like myoelectric hands and electronic knees at our facility, which are several times more expensive. Additionally, we already have a ward fund in the reconstructive surgery department. We perform facial reconstructions, which are quite complex procedures lasting up to 15 hours, involving flap transplants - a complex of tissues consisting of skin, muscle, and bone fragments with mandatory preservation of blood vessels. The recovery is rather slow, for these are patients with difficult cases. We also perform hearing restoration surgeries. Recently we’ve also started working on eyes, - specifically eye implants. And there are patients, on whom we perform reamputation surgeries due to complications like fragment expulsions, osteophytes, or neuromas. Accordingly, we could add another 45-50 monthly patients. In total, we have 100-110 patients simultaneously at Superhumans each month.

Superhumans proving every day that they can do anything. Photo: Superhumans Centre

And who’s aiding Superhumans financially?

We don’t use state funds at all. We’ve had this strategy and philosophy since the start. We believe that the state should spend its money on defence, while additional resources can be attracted from donors for humanitarian projects.

Our biggest benefactor - American philanthrop Howard Buffett, who covered yearly prosthetics costs for 500 people.

And this is a significant support for us. We also engage in fundraising. We have a wide circle of benefactors from Ukraine and around the world. We are constantly working on attracting additional resources for various areas - psychological support, prosthetics, and reconstructive surgery.

Howard Buffett, Olga Rudneva, and Andriy Stavnitser. Photo: Superhumans Centre

What are the three biggest problems that the Superhumans Centre encounters today?

There are no problems for us. There are challenges that we address. These challenges can be sorted by areas. People are a major challenge - we require high-quality specialists. Teamwork is a challenge as well since Ukrainian doctors aren’t used to working in teams, and our patients are part of this team. Another challenge is Ukraine’s accessibility. Because when a patient leaves our facility, he enters the real world again. If he encounters difficulties with integration and mobility, it threatens his mental state, and in time he could return to us once again.

And we do not want patients to return for psychological rehabilitation. It's important for us that they integrate into civilian life as quickly as possible.

The challenges include scaling the Superhumans model across Ukraine. The next two centres are set to open in Odesa and Dnipro. When it comes to purely medical challenges, we deal with difficult amputation cases. There’s also infection control because our patients often arrive with numerous infections. Before reaching us, they may have been in 6-7 different hospitals and have picked up infections during evacuation. Many of the injuries are from landmines and explosives, with numerous complications. There are many challenges, but none are insoluble.

You are against Ukrainians receiving prosthetics abroad. Why is that?

We must develop our own expertise in Ukraine, and prepare our specialists to become independent of western medical support. It won’t last forever. Unfortunately, as of today, we’re facing a large number of upper limb amputations, double and even triple amputations that are difficult to work with. Despite that, why should we send our most complicated patients abroad? To educate foreign specialists?

We have everything to completely ensure the installation of prosthetics for our people here, in Ukraine.

Secondly, a prosthetist and a patient are linked for life. Weight changes, changes in the patient's needs regarding the prosthesis - all of these require adjustments, servicing, and fine-tuning. It's simpler to do this in Ukraine. Returning abroad for these adjustments is very costly. It's unlikely for a person to collect the necessary funds to modify, for example, a prosthetic socket or reprogram something in their knee. Consequently, the overwhelming majority of people who were initially fitted with prosthetics abroad end up getting re-fitted in Ukraine over time. And the third factor is the language barrier. We have quite a few patients who received high-quality prosthetics abroad but came to Ukraine for rehabilitation because they didn't receive psychological support abroad due to language barriers or insufficient rehabilitation. These issues highlight the inefficiency of prosthetics abroad. Therefore, we must do everything to provide all these services locally.

They’re missing limbs but have an unconquerable desire to live. Photo: Superhumans Centre

How would you rate the current prosthetics level in Ukraine? What has changed in the last few years?

Our prosthetics level is quite high. Foreign experts, who used to come to teach us, now say: «There’s nothing more we can teach you. We should come and learn from you». The number of complex cases we've seen in Ukraine and at Superhumans over the past year matches all of the ones that Walter Reed (an American military hospital - author.) has encountered throughout its history of working with veterans' prosthetics in the U.S. Therefore, we already have the experience. Our prosthesits are constantly learning and have practical skills. This is not only true for Superhumans. Overall, there are a lot of skilled specialists in Ukraine.

The only issue is that we lack upper limb prosthetists. We constantly invite foreign experts to come and help us fit prosthetics for our patients.

But all in all, Ukraine has the experience, and the prosthetists. There just needs to be more of them. And we’re educating them right now, specifically at Lviv Polytechnic on our base and the UNBROKEN base, meaning that these people will soon become available on the job market and will be highly qualified.

Reconstructive surgery - it’s expensive and difficult

In war, people not only lose their limbs but also suffer facial injuries. At the end of February, the Superhumans Center started operating a reconstructive surgery department. How developed is this field in Ukraine?

We perform a considerable number of facial reconstructions and surgical interventions. However, the problem is that these are mostly carried out by doctors specialising in maxillofacial trauma, whereas general surgeons are needed. This is because the procedures involve implants and grafting skin from various body and facial parts. Together with the Ministry of Health, we have started a reform in training and preparing such specialists. We indeed lack experience in this area. Moreover, there are few schools worldwide that train specialists in this field. Together with the Ministry of Health of Ukraine, we are collaborating with France in this direction. Additionally, we need to prepare people who specialize in postoperative care, as patients will require long-term recovery and special care to minimise rejection, infection, and complications.

Is there a sufficient amount of specialists in the field of reconstructive facial surgery? Where do you look for them?

Today, we have joint teams operating - Ukrainian specialists together with their French or Czech colleagues. Each case is documented, broadcast live from the operating room, and discussed with experts. Every surgery is described as a case study and made available to the market so other surgeons can view it and ask questions. Additionally, American and Canadian missions come to help with facial reconstructive surgery. Thanks to the international medical partnership initiated by the First Lady, we have gained access to the world's best surgeons.

Our team of doctors includes those who performed the world's first face transplant operation.

They are interested in our complex cases, and we require their experience. Besides, reconstructive surgery is expensive, as the implants themselves are costly.

Most importantly - a team has to be prepared for these operations. Photo: Superhumans Centre

People with facial injuries are difficult patients from the perspective of not only physical but psychological recovery. Do they work with psychologists? Is there enough of them?

The first step for a patient at the centre is a meeting with a psychologist and an assessment of their psychological state. Regardless of the newcomer’s condition, their first meeting is with a psychologist who evaluates their mental state. The psychologist is the person who accompanies the patient throughout the entire treatment period. It is quite challenging for the patient to go through the recovery period, which sometimes lasts 3-5 years. Until the person is satisfied with the result, a psychologist has to be by their side, accompanying them through all these interventions.

We wouldn’t have initiated the treatment if we were lacking such specialists

This is not the case where we can figure out in the process that we’re lacking, for example, three specialists. They’re not trained in one night. Therefore, we form a team from the get-go. For instance, the Superhumans Center in Odesa is set to open in February but team-forming and preparation will start in September. In Dnipro, the centre should open in September 2025 but the teams have already started preparing. Hence, the team preparation period for launching a new centre or service is quite time-consuming.

We work with every investor and explain where their money will go

During your work trips abroad, you always encourage the West to engage more actively in supporting Ukraine. What particular aid and support would you like to see from them in the foreseeable future?

We always ask for weapons. This will help us end the war sooner. We understand that the sooner this happens, the less work we will have. We also ask for support for humanitarian projects, especially in education and healthcare. We believe these two areas are crucial for the country to function after the victory. Therefore, we constantly encourage foreign donors to pay attention to them and support us. Whether we are heard depends solely on us - on how we convey our thoughts. If we don't receive funding, it is our problem. It means we are not communicating effectively. After all, there are many problems in the world. We are not the only country at war.

And it is our job to ask for help, to encourage and invite additional resources here

And I believe everyone is doing that - from the President to a mother in Kharkiv who helps his husband on the frontline.

Olga, you once said that you dreamed of meeting Richard Branson and Bono face to face. And you did. You felt inspired by Hillary Clinton - and she invited you to her podcast. What rendezvous do you dream of today?

I think I’ve accomplished everything I dreamed of. There are certain plans for people we’re interested in working with. We would like them to engage in supporting Ukraine more actively. Accordingly, all of them are on our list.

You see, these meetings are not just for Olga Rudneva to somehow satisfy her ego. They’re about what these people can do for Ukraine

They can join support, provide additional funds, resources for certain projects. Therefore, we choose such people ourselves, people who are important for us to work with, and to be led into Ukraine as support. In my personal list, there are people like Oprah Winfrey, Jeff Bezos, and Melinda Gates. These are people who are still not involved in supporting Ukraine on the scale that we would prefer.

We have all been traumatised by the war

Olga, what do you learn from the Superhumans?

In our interactions with patients, we continuously improve our services. We follow their needs and adapt accordingly. The centre evolves, as does our vision of what it should be. This ranges from rebuilding the entire country in terms of accessibility to changing attitudes toward certain things. When you communicate with someone who has lost two, three, or even four limbs and see what they can achieve, it's a profound source of insights. It's a constant learning process. We enhance our personal and team qualities through these interactions. We remodel the centre to make it more convenient for them, ensuring the service is of higher quality and seamless.

Personally, they taught me endurance, and the ability to have less, but do more.

Tha is probably what they teach us every day. They taught us to dream and understand that it's not really about legs and arms, but about where we are going and why we need these limbs. The overwhelming majority of people have four limbs, and the most they use them for is to write angry comments on Facebook. That's the only thing they produce for the outside world. This raises the question of whether they really need their legs and arms to share negative content online. We have our "supers" who don't have four limbs.

They win marathons, climb mountains, learn to write, write books, learn to write with their other hand

You see these people and realise - yes, hands are really needed, and not just as hands, but hands for something meaningful. This understanding of «why?» actually came from our «supers». And there is an incredible gratitude for the standard set of limbs you feel every day because you can save a tremendous amount of energy and do things much faster. You understand that beside you is someone who does no less than you but spends much more effort and health to accomplish something. This gratitude is immense. People come to us with new stories every time. And this interaction is invaluable.

Above everything, patients dream of finding their place in life. Photo: Superhumans Centre

What do Superhumans’ patients dream of and what are they afraid of the most?

This is very individual. It’s hard to generalise this. Of course, everyone dreams of victory, and also - of finding their place in life. We try to help people achieve their dream, which can be divided into goals.

Every day, a person has to know why they get up in the morning and put on their prosthetics.

This is very important because without all this, the rehabilitation process can be prolonged for months, and that's not right. We help our «supers» find a purpose. And they are actually afraid of things that might seem trivial. Their biggest fear is telling their mothers that they have lost a limb. The guys fear that their wives will come, open the door to the ward, see the missing arm or leg, and say, «I told you so». They fear they won't be able to integrate into civilian life. They worry that people will point at them on the street, that they won't be able to connect with people who have never been to war. They fear they might lose their temper because they know they also represent the veteran community. They fear losing friends who are still fighting and not having enough resources to help their comrades who are still at war. Their fears are very much in the context of today. They are more afraid of the social aspects they might face because of their disability.

How do you help yourself when it gets hard emotionally and where do you look for motivation?

It does not get emotionally difficult for me. I don't experience periods of depression or despair. When you realise what you're doing, for whom, and why, you don't need to look for motivation. The difficulty lies purely in logistics - juggling different tasks. For instance, you might have Hillary Clinton on call while a patient requires immediate help, and at the same time, you need to decide who will take out the trash, which somehow falls onto you. It's challenging to manage different tasks simultaneously. You're a living person, and you must distribute the 24 hours you have each day effectively. But emotionally, it's not difficult for me. Despair and depression consume resources that are already very limited. I can't afford to spend them on such trivialities. Resources are limited in time, emotions, and even my knowledge. Therefore, I have to use them as efficiently as possible.

Yes, I hear different human stories every day, but I don't consider, for example, the story of someone losing four limbs as negative. The person is alive, standing in front of me. I understand what I can do for them. If they want to, they will have a wonderful life. Of course, if I were burying my comrades every day or on the frontlines unable to provide help, and people were dying in my arms, I would be emotionally devastated. But I don't see that.

I work with people who survived. These stories are borderline fantasy. These are survivors that have a future.

And if they came to us, they are dreaming of recovery and life. When I see someone in a wheelchair, I already envision them standing on their feet, holding a cup for the first time. I don't see a person without limbs. So, there's nothing for me to worry about. Nothing destroys me because I work with hope every day. And it's not mythical. We've already helped 550 patients who left us on their own two feet. They have lives that go on, families, and they dream and have children. The stories of our «supers» are stories of victory, even if they are incredibly challenging.

Olga Rudneva: we all have different traumas and experiences of war. Photo: Superhumans Centre

Does society have to be prepared for interaction with veterans? What should Ukrainians realise during this war?

All of us are traumatised in different ways, as a consequence of the war. To some, this means a lost home, a lost life, to others, it means losing their loved ones, some are veterans themselves, and some lived abroad and are returning to Ukraine. We all have different traumas and experiences of war. And we have to intertwine these experiences and learn to live together. And this is not a question of whether we have to learn to live with veterans. We need to learn to live with one another overall, to interact with the understanding that anyone standing in front of us has some kind of war trauma. Just like us. To treat each other with respect and understanding. After that, it’s a technical question. What trauma does the person in front of me have and what have they been through? They could’ve gone through the war, been wounded three thousand times, and be less traumatised than someone who’s lived abroad the entire time and came back with immense guilt.

We are all different. There is no special device that we could use to measure each other’s trauma

Our stress resilience and response to trauma is also different. Consequently, it's hard to determine whose trauma is deeper or more damaging to the state and to the individual. Therefore, we need to prepare to live with a range of war experiences within the same country. I believe that this is going to be our greatest challenge yet.

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A TV host, journalist and author of over three thousand materials on various subjects, including some remarkable journalist investigations that led to changes in local governments. She also writes about tourism, science and health. She got into journalism by accident over 20 years ago. She led her personal projects on the UTR TV channel, worked as a reporter for the news service and at the ICTV channel for over 12 years. While working she visited over 50 countries. Has exceptional skills in storytelling and data analysis. Worked as a lecturer at the NAU’s International Journalism faculty. She is enrolled in the «International Journalism» postgraduate study program: she is working on a dissertation covering the work of Polish mass media during the Russian-Ukrainian war.

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Українці сьогодні ставлять собі обґрунтоване запитання: хто відбудовуватиме Україну, якщо біженці не повернуться? В умовах драматичної демографічної ситуації це питання звучить особливо болісно. Проте останні дані з Польщі хоч і можуть на перший погляд занепокоїти, насправді розповідають іншу історію — не про втрату, а про неймовірну силу та потенціал, що гартується на чужині й чекає на свій час.

Звіт компанії Deloitte про становище українських біженців у Польщі змальовує картину надзвичайної стійкості й рішучості. Пам'ятаймо, про кого ми говоримо. Це не анонімна міграція. Це насамперед українські жінки й діти. Аж 67% домогосподарств утримують самотні жінки, які в чужій країні взяли на свої плечі долю всієї родини, борючись із травмою війни та щоденною непевністю щодо долі близьких. Їхня здатність стати на ноги та знайти роботу в таких складних умовах є першим потужним доказом сили українського духу.

Доказ цінності, а не аргумент залишатися

Внесок українців у польську економіку вражає. У 2024 році вони додали до польського ВВП аж 2,7%, що відповідає сумі майже 99 мільярдів злотих доданої вартості

Завдяки сплаченим українцями податкам і внескам доходи державного бюджету зросли на 2,94%. Ці цифри не слід сприймати як втрату для України. Навпаки — це твердий доказ величезної цінності українського людського капіталу. Доказ того, що українці навіть у несприятливих умовах здатні творити, будувати й робити величезний внесок у розвиток. А отже, можна зробити висновок, що цей самий людський капітал може стати ключовим ресурсом у процесі відбудови вільної України.

Ба більше, аналіз спростовує міф про нібито конкуренцію. Дані показують, що в повітах, де частка біженців у зайнятості зросла на один відсотковий пункт, зайнятість громадян Польщі зросла на 0,5%, а безробіття знизилося на 0,3%. Виявилося, що присутність українських працівників стала для польської економіки стимулом до підвищення продуктивності й дала полякам можливість перейти на краще оплачувані та більш відповідальні посади.

Надзвичайно промовистим є також професійне зростання самих українців. Медіана їхньої заробітної плати протягом двох років зросла з 3100 злотих до 4000 злотих нетто, наблизившись до рівня 84% медіани по країні. Це доказ не лише рішучості, але й блискавичної адаптації. Не менш важливим є той факт, що біженці переважно утримують себе самі. Дослідження UNHCR за 2024 рік показують, що аж 80% доходів у їхніх домогосподарствах походять від праці. Соціальні виплати, переважно 800+ на дітей, становлять лише 14% їхніх доходів, і ця частка не зросла попри підвищення суми виплати. 

Це один з найшвидших процесів економічної інтеграції в історії сучасних міграцій у Європі

Цю картину співпраці, яка приносить користь обом сторонам, підтверджують не лише аналітики. Її можна почути й у голосах польських підприємців, які щодня бачать, як нова енергія живить їхні компанії.

«Польща перебуває в комфортній ситуації, бо вона не лише допомагає людям у потребі, а й заробляє завдяки їхній праці. Рідко трапляється, щоб у такому масштабі етика йшла пліч-о-пліч з прагматизмом», — коментує власник польської фірми, яка працевлаштовує чимало працівників з України, переважно жінок. Він просить зберегти анонімність, бо «останні голоси від нового мешканця Бельведеру вказують на інший напрямок».

Слова підприємця чудово віддзеркалюють парадокс, у якому опинилася Польща. Його прохання про анонімність не є випадковим. У періоди виборчих кампаній побоювання, пов'язані з міграцією, стають легким політичним паливом для частини політичної сцени. Гасла про нібито «відбирання робочих місць» чи «надмірне навантаження на бюджет» хоч і суперечать реальним даним, часом свідомо використовуються для мобілізації електорату. Це створює атмосферу невизначеності, в якій навіть позитивні економічні факти відсуваються на другий план гучнішим, негативним наративом.

Скарб, що чекає на розкриття — в Україні

Однак найважливіший висновок зі звіту — це величезний, досі не використаний потенціал. Аж 40% біженців працездатного віку мають вищу освіту, але лише 12% з них працюють на посадах, що вимагають таких кваліфікацій (порівняно з 37% серед поляків). Основні бар'єри:

  • Мова: Лише 18% біженців заявляють про вільне володіння польською мовою.
  • Регуляції: У регульованих професіях, як-от лікар чи архітектор, працюють лише 3,6% біженців (серед поляків — 10,6%).
  • Громадянство: Багато професій у державному секторі (наприклад, вчитель, медсестра, медичний рятувальник) залишаються формально закритими для осіб без польського паспорта незалежно від їхньої фактичної кваліфікації.

Аналітики підрахували, що якби Польща розблокувала бодай половину цього потенціалу, її економіка отримала б щонайменше 6 мільярдів злотих на рік, з яких понад 2,5 мільярди надійшли б безпосередньо до держбюджету. Це сума, порівняна з великою податковою реформою.

Парадокс інтеграції

Сьогодні працевлаштовано 69% дорослих біженців працездатного віку, а серед жінок цей показник становить 70% — лише на 2 відсоткові пункти менше, ніж серед польок. Однак проблеми починаються у віковій групі 25-39 років, де українські матері працюють значно рідше через брак системної підтримки у догляді за малими дітьми.

Цікаво, що дані демонструють певний парадокс. З одного боку, професійна інтеграція та знаходження нормальної роботи призводять до того, що біженці рідше планують повернення в Україну. З іншого боку — доступ до освіти та державних послуг, тобто соціальна інтеграція, збільшує готовність до повернення, оскільки дає відчуття стабільності й здатність свідомо планувати майбутнє. Це означає, що, допомагаючи людям знайти себе в суспільстві, їх не обов’язково «відбирають» в України — радше дають їм сили для ухвалення свідомого рішення про повернення, коли це стане можливим.

Саме досвід, здобутий за кордоном, може стати безцінною інвестицією в майбутнє. Це знання стандартів ЄС, ділові контакти, нові навички. Це капітал, який повернеться в Україну разом з людьми — майбутніми підприємцями та лідерами відбудови.

Однак у всіх цих дебатах про відсотки ВВП та стратегії найрідше чути голос тих, кого це стосується найбільше. Їхнє почуття безпеки крихке, бо залежить не лише від економічної стабільності, а й від соціальної атмосфери. А вона в свою чергу буває отруєна політичною грою, в якій гасла на кшталт «час закінчити з преференціями» чи «захист кордонів від напливу чужинців» стають інструментом для здобуття підтримки. Це відчуття «небажаного гостя» найкраще передає допис з форуму української діаспори:

«Якщо ти біженка, яка втратила все, що нажила за життя, чоловік пішов на фронт, а ти з дітьми мусила панічно тікати за кордон і день у день живеш питанням, чи буде до чого і до кого повертатися, чи все ж залишитися в Польщі, бо тут поки що безпечно, хоча дедалі частіше відчуваєш, що ти тут небажана гостя (...) то чи почувалася б ти в безпеці?»

Ці слова нагадують, що ключем до всього є перемога та створення в Україні безпечного, справедливого і перспективного майбутнього. Це сила, яка може повернутися і в майбутньому живити Україну. Однак, ключовим буде створення умов, які дозволять цим людям безпечно жити й використовувати здобутий досвід у власній країні.

20
хв

Сила, що чекає на повернення: українці в Польщі — не втрачений, а загартований потенціал для відбудови

Єжи Вуйцік

Joanna Mosiej: I would like to begin our conversation with your family history, because on many levels it serves as a metaphor for our Polish-Ukrainian relations. I am referring to your ancestors, the Szeptycki brothers. Roman (Andrey Sheptytsky - head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Metropolitan of Galicia, Archbishop of Lviv (1901–1944) - Edit.) converted to the Greek Catholic faith, entered a monastery, and later became Metropolitan. Another brother, Stanisław, first served in the Austrian army, and after the war became a general in the Polish army. Both were patriots, individuals deeply devoted to the countries they served. And they maintained a fraternal bond.

Professor Andrzej Szeptycki: Of the five Szeptycki brothers, two identified themselves as Ukrainians - Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky and Blessed Father Klymentiy - and three were Poles. I am referring to General Stanisław Szeptycki and also his brothers, Aleksander and my great-grandfather Leon. Metropolitan Andrey and Father Klymentiy regularly came on holiday to rest at the family home in Prylbichi in the Yavoriv district, where my great-grandfather Leon Szeptycki later lived. Despite their national differences, they maintained good relations with each other until the end of their lives.

Professor Andrzej Szeptycki. Photo: Michal Zebrowski / East News

They proved to us that different national identities can coexist without excluding one another.

I believe it was also very important that in the case of each of them, national identity was a significant element of life, but not the only one. In the case of Metropolitan Andrey and Father Klymentiy, their vocation and religious choices were primary as clergy. General Stanisław Szeptycki, as a soldier of that time, first served in the Austro-Hungarian and then in the Polish army and sought to serve his country well. They were certainly patriots - of each nation with which they identified. On the other hand, it is very important that they were certainly not nationalists. And this allowed them to respect different views while remaining close to one another.

Was such a legacy, a borderland identity, a value or a curse for your family? How does it define you?

During the communist period, it was somewhat of a challenge, a burden. The communist authorities viewed representatives of the former noble class negatively. In the case of the Szeptycki family, this was further combined with a very strong propaganda narrative directed against Ukrainians in Poland. And, of course, directed personally against Metropolitan Andrey, who was portrayed as a Ukrainian nationalist and spiritual father of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. During the communist period, and even in the 1990s, relatives quite regularly heard that Szeptycki is a Banderite». Nowadays, this has practically disappeared. I experienced this myself in 2023 when I was running an election campaign. The few voter reactions to my name were generally positive. In this sense, it is a significant change.

Apart from comments on social media, of course.

Yes, there I am often called Szeptycki - a Ukrainian, a Banderite. And surely there is a portion of society that will always react in this way. Returning to how it defines me, ever since our student years, my cousins and I have quite often travelled around Ukraine.

Some of us needed only one trip, while others stayed longer, for life. My cousin moved to Lviv a few years ago at the age of 50. Another cousin established the Szeptycki Family Foundation, which became actively involved in supporting Ukraine after February 24th 2022.

Photo: Karina Krystosiak/REPORTER

How do you explain this outburst of solidarity among us in 2022?

I believe there are three important factors. Firstly, the simple human need to help. Altruism which arises when we witness the suffering of others and react without much consideration.

Secondly, the shared experience of Russian imperialism. This has always resonated with Polish society. It is worth recalling the Polish response to the war in Chechnya - the reception of refugees, the clear sympathies. Or the year 2008 and the war in Georgia. Poland does not have strong cultural or geographical ties with Georgia, yet the reaction was vivid. We remember President Lech Kaczyński’s visit to Tbilisi and his prophetic words: today Georgia, tomorrow Ukraine, the day after, perhaps the Baltic states, and then Poland. But most importantly - and in my opinion decisively - is the fact that none of this arose in a vacuum. This solidarity did not suddenly sprout in a desert, but on rather fertile ground which Poles and Ukrainians had been cultivating together over the past three decades.

From the 1990s, both sides carried out considerable work to develop interpersonal contacts. In 2022, many Poles were not helping «refugees». We were, for the most part, simply helping friends

Keeping in mind the great importance of the prior presence of Ukrainian refugees who had arrived in Poland since 2014, economic migrants from Ukraine, and the Ukrainian minority, primarily descendants of the victims of Operation Vistula.

Of course. Since the beginning of the war, that is, since 2014, or even since 2004, the Ukrainian minority in Poland has played an important role in supporting Ukraine - collecting funds, purchasing equipment, sending that equipment to the frontline. And receiving Ukrainian military refugees after February 24th 2022. Undoubtedly, the role of this community cannot be overestimated.

Precisely. You have been researching Polish-Ukrainian relations for many years. How have they changed? How has the Poles’ perception of Ukrainians changed?

It has been a long process. From the establishment of mutual contacts in the 1990s, through the Orange Revolution, the Revolution of Dignity - up to 2022. And, on the other hand, through the long-term presence in Poland of a significant group of economic migrants from Ukraine. Let us not forget that none of this would have been possible without the consistency of Poland’s Eastern policy and the legacy of the thought of the Paris-based «Kultura» and Jerzy Giedroyc personally. This belief in the importance of Ukraine, the importance of good relations, the necessity of support.

We were the first country to recognise Ukraine’s independence.

And it is worth mentioning a very important, albeit little-known, moment in Polish-Ukrainian relations on the eve of the USSR’s collapse, namely the participation of the Polish delegation of civic committees in the 1st Congress of the People’s Movement in Kyiv in 1989. The presence of representatives of the Polish civic committees, including Adam Michnik and Bogdan Borusewicz, was a symbolic gesture of support for Ukraine from Polish «Solidarity» at a time when Poland was still part of the Warsaw Pact and Ukraine still within the USSR.

Photo: Łukasz Gdak/East News

And what were the subsequent milestones of our cooperation?

First and foremost, the three key events of the past two decades, which I have already mentioned: the Orange Revolution, the Revolution of Dignity, and the full-scale Russian invasion in 2022. Each of these was met in Poland with clear public interest and a broad response of solidarity.

A sense of shared destiny, the legacy of Solidarity and the struggle for independence played an important role. At times, analogies were even drawn: it was said that Ukrainians in 2022 found themselves in a situation similar to that faced by Poles during the Second World War. The exhibition «Warsaw - Mariupol: cities of ruins, cities of struggle, cities of hope» was one such attempt to draw this symbolic parallel: cities levelled to the ground, the suffering of civilians, resistance. But it was also accompanied by another, no less important conviction: that Ukrainians today are facing something we, fortunately, are not experiencing - a classic violent conflict with Russian imperialism. And this solidarity manifested itself in Polish assistance.

What can we do to ensure this unprecedented solidarity seen in 2022 is not wasted? Today, in addition to the demons of the past, such as Volyn’ and the issue of exhumations, there are pressing social and economic problems.

Firstly, it is important to realise that no surge of solidarity lasts forever. The enthusiasm for Ukrainians that erupted after the beginning of the Russian invasion has gradually waned, and we are now in a phase where tension and fatigue are beginning to accumulate.

For most of its recent history, Poland has been a country of emigration - people left in search of work, bread, a better life. The issue of immigration was virtually absent from public debate. Today, the situation has changed. Around two million Ukrainians live in Poland - both economic migrants and people who fled the war. This is an entirely new social reality and a challenge to which we must respond consciously. Other challenges, including economic ones, must also be taken into account.

The pandemic, war and inflation - all of these influence the public sentiment. When people start running out of money, their willingness to show solidarity with «new neighbours» may weaken

Especially since they are constantly exposed to populist narratives claiming that immigrants take away our social benefits and our places in the queue for doctors. And that Ukraine does not agree to exhumations.

Yes, this is precisely why Polish-Ukrainian relations are no longer merely a matter of the past, but one of the key challenges for the future of Central and Eastern Europe. It is therefore important to defuse historical disputes, such as those concerning exhumations. It is very good that an agreement has recently been reached on this issue. Even if discussions on exhumations in the short term revive the Volyn’ issue, in the long term they will help resolve it. However, it is important to recognise - and I say this quite often to both Polish and Ukrainian partners - that at present, the key issue is not history. A major challenge lies in the broad economic matters related to Ukraine’s accession to the European Union.

We must recognise that Ukraine is not a failed state from which only unskilled workers or refugees come to Poland.

Despite the war, Ukraine has advantages in many areas that will pose a challenge to Poland when it joins the EU single market

Of course, Ukraine's accession to the EU is in Poland’s strategic interest. However, these are developments that we must be aware of, which we must closely observe and take action to prevent conflicts in these areas.

Therefore, at present, the real challenge is not the issue of the Volyn’ massacre, but rather how to adapt the common agricultural policy to the potential of Ukrainian agriculture. Naturally, it is also essential to prevent the escalation of social antagonism.

Photo: Jakub Orzechowski / Agencja Wyborcza.pl

How does Polish-Ukrainian academic cooperation appear against this background?

Today, around 9% of students at Polish universities are international, almost half of whom are Ukrainian. The academic world, in line with its longstanding European tradition, is multinational. Universities have always been places of openness and tolerance; today, they develop programmes for support, equality and diversity. These are initiatives and responsibilities undertaken by the universities themselves.

Of course, there are always areas that can be improved. I am thinking, for example, of efforts to achieve better integration within the university. It often happens that we have two or three student communities living separately – students from Poland, English-speaking students and students from the East, mainly Ukrainians and Belarusians. We are working to ensure that these two or three communities come closer together.

You are responsible for international cooperation. In Ukraine, claims are heard that Poland is «draining» its intellectual capital. This is a well-known phenomenon here too - for years, it has been said that the best Polish academics leave for the West. What does this circulation between Poland and Ukraine look like?

Before February 24th 2022, around 500 Ukrainian academics worked in Polish universities. After the outbreak of war, this number doubled. Initially, there were special support measures - help with finding housing, work, a safe place - but quite quickly we realised that a change of perspective was needed.

Our goal is not a brain drain, but a brain circulation - a circulation of knowledge, ideas and experience

This is precisely why today, as a ministry, we support projects involving researchers and institutions from both countries. Those that build a joint research space.

A concrete example of such cooperation is the project of Vasyl Stefanyk Precarpathian National University in Ivano-Frankivsk, which, together with the Centre for East European Studies, rebuilt the pre-war university observatory «White Elephant» on Mount Pip Ivan. A functioning research station was created from ruins. Now the two universities are seeking funding for a telescope, the third stage of the project. This is an example of concrete cooperation based on partnership, not asymmetry.

Another example is Mykulychyn, a village in the Ukrainian Carpathians, where a Polish-Ukrainian youth meeting centre is being built. During my recent visit there, the first meeting took place with the participation of students from several Ukrainian universities and the University of Warsaw. It is in such places - in conversations, debates, joint projects - that the next generation of mutual understanding is born.

There is a real chance that this generation will get to know each other not through stereotypes, but through experience and culture.

Yes, but much work still lies ahead. I remember a study conducted, I believe, in 2021. Poles were asked which Ukrainian authors they knew, and Ukrainians were asked which Polish authors they knew. It turned out that 95% of Poles had never read a book by a Ukrainian author - and vice versa. What followed was even more interesting. Ukrainians associated Polish authors with Sienkiewicz and Sapkowski, while Poles named Gogol and Oksana Zabuzhko among Ukrainian authors. In terms of getting to know one another, including through culture, we still have much work to do.

But it is also important not to reduce each other to a kind of ethno-folklore, because we have much more to offer one another. We are united by common aspirations and hopes. And commonality does not always arise from similarity. It also arises from the desire to coexist despite differences and wounds.

20
хв

Poland and Ukraine: we want to coexist despite differences and wounds

Joanna Mosiej

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