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На війні, як у спорті: треба боротися до кінця

Ігор Трач — багаторазовий чемпіон Польщі, Європи та світу з перегонів на собачих упряжках. Три роки тому він призупинив свої тренування, щоб навчати українських солдатів на передовій військово-польовій медицині. Бо, за його словами, солдати вчаться на своїх помилках, а ці помилки коштують найдорожче — життя.

Aldona Hartwińska

Ігор Трач. Фото з приватного архіву

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Альдона Гарвінська: Їздиш на фронт не лише з матеріальною допомогою для армії. Ти також привозиш зі собою певні навички з військово-польової медицини. І це те, що відрізняє таких людей, як ти, від інших волонтерів в Україні. Розкажеш про це? 

Ігор Трач: Різниця в знаннях між солдатами армії, яка за три роки повномасштабної війни раптово зросла з двохсот тисяч до понад мільйона, величезна. З одного боку, у нас є чудові фахівці, підготовлені, з фронтовим досвідом, який вони здобули своїм життям. Але є й такі, які нічого не знають про польову медицину. Ми працювали з різними підрозділами. 

Іноді з навчанням ми потрапляємо туди, де є загальна потреба. Тоді ми створюємо таку собі спільну майстерню. У нашій команді є інструктори з військово-польової медицини, а також з тактики польових операцій, військової тактики. Ми обмінюємося знаннями, досвідом, ідеями та інформацією про методи роботи. Але буває так, що ми потрапляємо в підрозділ, який є повністю «зеленим». 

Зелений, але бореться.

Він бореться. Одного разу ми приїхали в околицю другої лінії окопів, приблизно за вісімсот метрів від росіян. Перша лінія була вдвічі ближче, близько чотирьохсот метрів. Солдати якраз готувалися йти на розвідку, до нульової лінії — хоча зараз важко сказати, де ця лінія, бо через безпілотники та артилерію все значно розтягнулося. 

Так чи інакше, вони повинні були йти ближче до російських позицій. Дивлюся на одного: каска, бушлат, автомат і більше нічого. Питаю його: «А де у тебе джгут?». — «Ну... десь є», — каже. Шукає, шукає, шукає... Нарешті знаходить його в кишені штанів, ще в оригінальній упаковці, загорнутий у фольгу. Тобто — непідготовлений до швидкого використання. Бо розпаковування потребує часу, якого після поранення просто немає. І коли я запитую, де в нього аптечка, він відповідає, що вона у медика. І справді: їхній бойовий медик мав із собою шість таких аптечок, бо більше не міг вмістити. І солдати не знали, що з ними робити.

Між тим, ідея особистої аптечки полягає в тому, щоб вона завжди була з тобою. Щоб у будь-який момент хтось інший міг скористатися нею і допомогти вам

З початком повномасштабної війни ти бачиш, як українці вчаться, тренуються. Чи стають їхні знання дедалі глибшими?

Так, звичайно, але це навчання купується кров'ю. Солдати вчаться на своїх помилках, і ці помилки коштують найвищої ціни — життя. Я маю на увазі не лише військово-польову медицину, а взагалі будь-який рівень науки чи підготовки. Ви побачите колосальну різницю, якщо порівняєте це з підготовкою солдатів у системі НАТО.

Ігор Трач. Фото з приватного архіву

Тому що система НАТО ставить захист життя солдата на перше місце?

Так. У солдатів, які пройшли підготовку за натовською системою, вищий відсоток виживання на полі бою. А командири, які володіють знаннями ще з часів Варшавського договору, мають найбільше дурних ідей, приймають найбільше дурних рішень і мають найбільше вбивств у своїх командах. 

Найвищі показники виживання мають ті підрозділи, які пройшли навчання на Заході. Вони мислять настільки гнучко, що здатні швидко вчитися і адаптувати свої знання до сучасного поля бою.

Чого ви навчаєте солдатів?

Перш за все, ми робимо базові речі, діємо за стандартами НАТО. Ми маємо справу з найбільшим вбивцею на полі бою, яким є масивна кровотеча. Ми вчимо солдатів правильно накладати джгути, а також апроксимації та конверсії, тобто коли цей джгут потрібно перевірити, через який час, а коли зняти, якщо потрібно. Дуже часто джгути накладають в умовах стресу, паніки — і часто без потреби. Хоча, слово «без потреби» не зовсім коректне. Адже краще накласти пов'язку на рану, яка цього не потребує, ніж не накласти її тоді, коли це дійсно необхідно. Тому що при наявності знань і навичок, накладену без потреби пов'язку можна потім зняти. 

Правило просте: якщо солдат поранений вогнепальним пораненням, пов'язку треба накладати високо і туго. Пораненого потрібно перемістити в жовту зону, більш безпечну, і там перевірити, чи дійсно пов'язка необхідна. Бо може виявитися, що рана незначна і пов'язка не потрібна.

Однак непідготовлені солдати не мають цих знань і часто сидять з цими бинтами не кілька годин, а навіть день чи два, коли немає можливості евакуюватися. За цей час у них зупиняється кровообіг, і коли вони нарешті добираються до медичного пункту, виявляється, що рана була невелика, але через ішемію кінцівку доводиться ампутувати. 

Дуже часто буває так, що лише досвідчений бойовий медик знає, як правильно накласти пов'язку. Між тим, це базові знання кожного солдата, підготовленого за стандартами НАТО, який працює за протоколом MARCHE — найважливішим протоколом у військовій медицині.

Коли ти отримав той перший імпульс, який підштовхнув тебе піти на фронт?

Я з самого початку знав, що поїду туди, просто треба було до цього підготуватися. Треба було вивчити правила безпеки, навчитися працювати в режимі постійної загрози

Крім того, звуки війни досить заплутані для непідготовленого вуха. Щось бахнуло, щось стукнуло, і ти думаєш, що це дуже небезпечно, хоча насправді небезпека дуже далеко. З іншого боку, той факт, що небезпека дуже велика, іноді взагалі не помітний. 

Я зрозумів це, заходячи все далі і далі, опиняючись все ближче і ближче до фронту. Звичайно, не сам, завжди з солдатами, з кимось, від кого я міг би черпати знання. 

Ти від самого початку знав, що на це здатний?

Під час перших двох-трьох поїздок у перший рік війни я взагалі не думав про подальші ескапади. Я думав, що все закінчиться в одну мить, що ця війна не може тривати довго. Коли я поїхав у Львівську область, мене лякала навіть зенітна тривога, я не міг спати. І незабаром я зрозумів, що це не скоро закінчиться, тому треба більше допомагати, бажано безпосередньо на фронті.

Ігор Трач на перегонах. Фото з приватного архіву

Багато хто не розуміє, навіщо ризикувати життям, щоб вийти «на нуль». Але іноді інакше не можна.

Тільки так ми можемо допомогти ефективно. По-перше, ми впевнені, що допомога дійшла до тих, кому вона потрібна. Нічого не загубиться по дорозі, ніхто не звинуватить тебе у тому, що ти не знаєш, кому ти це передав, адже передаєш у власні руки. По-друге, привозиш не просто обладнання, а надію для цих людей. Їм до біса важливо, щоб ви з ними зустрілися, познайомилися. Це відносини, які не можна купити. По-третє, перебуваючи в зоні небезпеки, ми вчимося. Дивовижно, що ми можемо вчитися, звикати до всього цього і отримувати знання, яке у нас недоступне. Ми привозимо тонну натуральної допомоги, а забираємо кілька тонн знань.

Ти знаєш цих людей, проводиш з ними час, ви прив'язуєтеся. Чи не думаєш собі, коли треба повертатися, що це може бути ваша остання зустріч?

Багато людей, з якими я зустрічався, вже загинули, але ніхто з близьких. Я намагаюся позитивно думати про наступний день, наступний місяць. Я намагаюся все це пережити. Ніби ця війна, те, що вони там вбивають один одного, є чимось природним, звичайним.

Нормалізувати те, що не є нормальним?

Це адаптація. Треба пристосовуватися до того, що відбувається. Я сам не борюся, але бачу, як це роблять інші. Нещодавно мені спало на думку, що адаптація можлива лише тоді, коли ти розумієш, чому це відбувається. Вони борються за свою землю, за свою незалежність. Я б, напевно, збожеволів, якби хтось із них сказав мені: «Давай, підемо вб'ємо росіян, буде весело». Ні, вони роблять це, бо мусять. Тому що тамтешні люди вбиватимуть їх, їхні сім'ї, їхніх дітей.

Українські солдати говорять про себе, що вони «працюють». Чи ти звернув увагу, як часто вони вживають це слово? 

Так, вони ходять на роботу. Іноді, коли я їх запитую: «Як у вас з моральним духом?», вони відповідають: «Ми про це не думаємо. Це робота, яку ми повинні робити».

Чого тебе навчила Україна? Чи змінила вона тебе?

Так, я думаю, що вона мене дуже змінила. Мені важко судити про себе, але я завжди знав, що я впертий — і я підтвердив це тут. Я був впертим у спорті, тому я такий і тут. Я робив різні речі в своєму житті, іноді екстремальні. Але це щось зовсім нове. Я не знав, як я знайду себе в цьому. Люди швидко адаптуються, тільки якщо у них є мета і конкретна мотивація.

Протягом багатьох років я уявляв собі кожну гонку, кожну можливу перешкоду, яку мені доведеться подолати — але я ніколи не уявляв собі можливу аварію. Тільки позитивні речі. Так само і тут. Я візуалізую небезпеки, але не для того, щоб потрапити в них, а для того, щоб проаналізувати, як їх уникнути.

Крім того, є ще постановка завдань. Я беру на себе певні завдання в колоні — як на перегонах. Щоб виграти змагання, я маю зробити це, це і це. І це процес. І тут, щоб забезпечити конвой і безпечно дістатися додому, мені також доводиться виконувати різні завдання. 

Фото з приватного архіву

Звісно. Маєш багато звань і нагород. Люди, які сидять в українських темах, часто навіть не усвідомлюють, з ким вони мають справу. А чи впливає твоя діяльність в Україні на те, яким спортсменом ти є? Чи впливає це на зменшення частоти тренувань? Чи впливає на те, що цих медалей буде менше?

Так, звичайно. З іншого боку, той факт, що я спортсмен, допомагає мені функціонувати в Україні. Але те, що я в Україні, заважає мені перемагати і ставати кращим. Тому що я менше тренуюся, рідше виступаю на змаганнях. Я просто віддаю більше енергії Україні. У певному сенсі, це перешкода на шляху до моїх старих цілей. Але це був мій вибір. Пріоритети трохи змінилися, і деякі люди ненавидять мене за це, але мені байдуже. Тому що те, що відбувається там, важливіше. Для нашого майбутнього також.

Що б ти сказав тим людям, які звинувачують тебе у тому, що ти прийняв неправильне рішення і марнуєш свою кар'єру спортсмена в Україні?

Я не відмовився від кар'єри спортсмена. Я роблю це для того, щоб у майбутньому тренуватися більше. Спокійно і стабільно. Я дивлюся на кілька років вперед. Щоб через тиждень я міг тренуватися в повному спокої, і, можливо, ця крапля, в цьому морі потреб з мого боку, здатна щось змінити. Крім того, якщо Росія виграє цю війну і вони підуть далі в нашому напрямку, я вже буду певною мірою підготовлений до того, що може статися тут.

Я хотів би, щоб це прозвучало. Ми, поляки, повинні готуватися до найгіршого. Всі мудрі про це говорять, і я не додам нічого нового — допомагаючи Україні, ми даємо собі час

Те, що українці воюють з росіянами, дає нам заспокоєння, що не ми мусимо воювати з ними. Ми допомагаємо їм боротися за нас, але не нашими руками.

Не поляки там гинуть. У нас є час, щоб краще підготуватися. І весь цей час Україна послаблює Росію і сильно задіює її. Україна виграє нам час. Я не кажу, що є впевненість, що через п'ять років російські війська будуть штурмувати Варшаву. Але такий напад з боку Росії може бути, і ймовірність цього в сто разів більша, ніж, наприклад, що на нас нападуть, не знаю, чехи чи італійці. 

А загроза з боку Москви дуже реальна. Я багато разів чув, часто від українських розвідників, що дуже ймовірно, що найближчим часом, протягом наступного року, відбудеться вторгнення в якусь європейську країну. Наприклад, в Польщу з боку з боку Білорусі. І росіяни зроблять це лише для того, щоб знову випробувати терпіння світу, подивитися, як далеко вони можуть відсунути кордони, як багато вони можуть собі дозволити. Чи не відреагує світ знову і не дозволить їм анексувати більше території ще в одній країні.

Ти якось розповідав мені, що зустрічався з росіянами на змаганнях, з деякими з них товаришував, а потім вони намагалися пояснити тобі, що Путін має рацію. Що ти їм скажеш, якщо колись знову зустрінешся з ними на змаганнях?

Я розсміюся їм в обличчя і покажу відео, яке знімав у цей час. Наші контакти обірвалися, я не знаю, що вони роблять і де вони. Є також кілька росіян, з якими я досі підтримую контакти. Обмежено, але контактую. У них дещо інша думка про Путіна, ніж у більшості росіян.

Я багато років їздив до Росії, тренувався з ними. Російський міністр спорту хотів дати мені російський паспорт у 2014 році. Він запитав, що вони повинні зробити, щоб я прийняв цей паспорт і виступав за кольори Росії. Я, звісно, відповів, що маю свій, польський і мені його вистачає. Хоча мені там було добре. І платили мені добре. Ніяких внутрішніх конфліктів. Нічого, нуль. Тільки це було між 2011 і 2014 роками, до війни. Зараз все було б інакше.

Можеш сказати, як тобі допомогти? У вас є скринька, але на що насправді йдуть гроші? На що жертвують люди? 

Ми все ще вчимося отримувати якомога більше коштів безготівково. Ми веземо не тільки спорядження для військових, яке ми організовуємо завдяки нашій угоді з Міністерством оборони Великобританії, але ми також веземо допомогу для тварин, допомогу для лікарень, медичну допомогу. З іншого боку, ми здійснюємо в середньому дві колони на місяць, дуже часто на Донбас. Деякі колони мають маршрути по 5-6 тисяч кілометрів. Їздимо на власних автомобілях, до яких причеплюємо причепи. На даний момент у нас чотири машини, і більша частина грошей, які нам вдається зібрати, йде на ремонт цих машин і на паливо. Тому що одна машина, з важким причепом і вантажем, на такому маршруті спалює приблизно більш-менш 5 тисяч злотих. Ми їздимо на двох машинах, тож загалом 10, а якщо двічі на місяць, то виходить 20 тисяч тільки на пальне. Плюс ремонти. Нещодавно ми замінили коробку передач, двигуни в машинах. Я вже навіть не хочу перераховувати. 

Тобто, якщо хтось жертвує на ваші виїзди, це просто дає вам можливість продовжувати працювати?

Саме так. У нас є чим заправляти, є чим лагодити машини. Але знаєш, як це буває, дуже часто це відбувається з наших особистих грошей, тому що просто за поїздку ми не збираємо стільки, скільки нам потрібно на місці. Знаєш це зі своїх конвоїв. Зі збірками ніколи невідомо. Вони стоять на місці два-три тижні, потім хтось пише статтю або робить подкаст, потім вони знову рухаються на кілька днів, потім знову стоять на місці. Навіть у перші роки війни були компанії, які хотіли зробити свій внесок і, наприклад, спонсорували колону. Зараз це вже не так райдужно. Але на війні, як і в спорті, треба боротися до кінця. Поки Україна не переможе. 

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Journalist and author of books (including «Sweden. Where a Viking drinks oat latte»). Delivers military aid to the frontlines. First witnessed the war with her own eyes in December 2022. It was then that she decided to return to the frontlines with aid as often as possible. Today, people say she is a «solid rear support». Soldiers fight effectively with rifles, while she is the rear guard with a camera and video equipment, feeling a duty to speak about what is happening. She wants to continue staying in place - to help and to show the reality of war - not always in black and sorrowful colours.

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Since 2014, the return of prisoners of war has been handled by the Joint Centre for the Search and Release of Prisoners of War under the SSU. However, with the onset of full-scale war, the number of captives increased significantly, leading to the establishment of the Coordination Headquarters for the Treatment of Prisoners of War in March 2022. The Head of its Central Representation, Yuliya Pavliuk, emphasises: the main priority is to locate and bring back all captives, but equally important is supporting the families of those missing in action and those waiting for their loved ones to return from captivity.

Nataliya Zhukovska: How are the lists of prisoners of war for exchange formed?

Yuliya Pavliuk: At the onset of the full-scale invasion, Ukraine established the National Information Bureau (NIB). According to the Geneva Convention on international law, this serves as a registry that records all defenders who are missing in action, regardless of their status. Even if military personnel have no relatives, information still has to be included in the NIB by the units where they served. This registry, in essence, becomes the exchange list as it is continuously communicated to the Russian side. In reality, according to international conventions and laws, prisoner exchanges should not occur during active combat. Ukraine currently has unique experience in this field.

There is no clear and regulated system for conducting exchanges. Every exchange and every negotiation is a special operation. Different negotiations for every individual

Of course, we do not disclose the uniqueness, methods, or schemes of conducting negotiations. This is classified information. However, in general, there is prioritisation. Those who have been in captivity since 2014 are a priority. We understand these individuals have spent more than nine years in captivity. However, when Russia proposes to return someone with a shorter duration of captivity, Ukraine accepts them.

Ukrainians freed from Russian captivity

Sometimes, after exchanges, misunderstandings and questions arise from families: «Why was that person exchanged and not ours?» Unfortunately, we cannot always dictate conditions to the enemy.

In addition, priority is given to severely ill and wounded men and women. According to international law, such categories of military personnel should be returned to their home country outside of exchanges. However, we know that our enemy does not adhere to these agreements. Overall, Ukraine's official position remains unchanged: we are ready to exchange everyone for everyone.

And who is exchanged with «more difficulty»?

There are categories of officers from certain Armed Forces units, the National Guard of Ukraine, and border guards whom Russia is reluctant to return. Furthermore, sometimes the Russians attach particular significance to prisoners of war with media coverage - those prominent in the media. As a result, media stories do not always positively influence exchange processes. We emphasise this when communicating with families. If relatives want to help somehow, they must consult specialists. War must be managed by the military. When improvisation begins, it is not good and can only cause harm.

If we look at the exchange statistics, for instance, if 100 people are returned, this number proportionally includes military personnel from different units. And if the Armed Forces are the largest, then their members will constitute the majority in captivity

The Armed Forces include the Marine Corps, ground units, assault brigades, reconnaissance battalions, tank crews and artillery personnel. The Armed Forces also have transport services, for example, which are less publicised and discussed, but many of their members are also in captivity. When families question why there are so few of «theirs», it is essential to understand that we consider the approximate total number of those who might be in captivity - tens of thousands of people. In each exchange, there will be more members of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, slightly fewer from the National Guard, border guards, and so on.

Yuliya Pavliuk: «Media stories do not always positively influence exchange processes»

Fortunately, there has been significant progress in negotiations, as evidenced by recent exchanges. We have been able to return many defenders who had received life sentences or terms of imprisonment of 8-9 years.

Why are there delays in the exchange of prisoners? What causes prolonged pauses?

Regrettably, this does not depend solely on Ukraine. There are no fixed timelines, such as exchanges every Tuesday or every second Wednesday. It is an unregulated process. There have been instances where timelines and the number of people were agreed upon, only for the exchange to be cancelled either by Russia or due to the overall security situation. For example, if the exchange point comes under fire, the exchange cannot take place that day or soon after.

The exchange itself is a special operation. It may be scheduled for 8:00 in the morning but could be delayed until noon or 8:00 in the evening

Sometimes, Russia announces through its media that the exchange has already taken place when, in fact, it has not. The conditions under which the exchange occurs largely depend on the Russian side.

Where are Ukrainian prisoners held? Where are the worst conditions? What do freed military personnel say about captivity?

There is no «good» captivity. Detainees in prisons and detention centres have limited access to fresh air. They are confined to one room containing a toilet, a table where they eat and sleep, and a single window high up on the wall that does not open. Sometimes walks are allowed, but regimes are not always adhered to. From our side, the only demand we can and do make to the aggressor country is compliance with international conditions and conventions. If they held our defenders under conditions at least consistent with those outlined in the Geneva Convention, the health and well-being of the returned men and women would be significantly better.

Yuliya Pavliuk with Mariyana Chechelyuk, who spent 25 months in enemy captivity.

Unfortunately, we cannot always influence this situation. Of course, upon their return, military personnel speak extensively about the torture they endured. We continually appeal to our international partners, particularly the UN mission and the International Red Cross. They are responsible for the condition of our military personnel.

Many of the freed men suffer from severe illnesses, consequences of serious injuries, and significant weight loss due to torture and inadequate nutrition

Upon returning from captivity, they undergo interviews with specialised services. The war crimes committed by the enemy are meticulously documented. What we can do now is document all the facts and transfer them to the appropriate international bodies.

How would you evaluate the activities of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC)? What are the challenges in working with them?

Regrettably, representatives of this organisation in Russia are almost never allowed access to places where Ukrainian prisoners are held. Their work in temporarily occupied territories and in Russia is currently very limited and insufficient. Most of our defenders, returned from captivity, claim they have never seen Red Cross representatives even once. This particularly includes the delivery of letters and parcels. Even if parcels are sent via the Red Cross, they do not always reach the prisoners. We understand that the administration of the detention facilities may keep the parcels. However, the Red Cross should ensure that the parcels reach their intended recipients.

Yuliya Pavliuk: «Most of our defenders, returned from captivity, claim they have never seen Red Cross representatives even once»

That is why we appeal to all international organisations and urge them to ensure the implementation of the mandate granted to the ICRC specifically in the aggressor’s country. They are the guarantors of the safety of our defenders there. We, in turn, provide every possible assistance to the Red Cross Mission in Ukraine. We have even created so-called mixed medical commissions, where representatives of various organisations, including the Red Cross, can visit prisoners and assess their condition. Through this initiative, we hoped Russia would follow our example and provide the same access to our prisoners. Unfortunately, to date, we see no results.

Can this explain why the Russians treat some battalions in captivity worse than others?

I see the men and women who return. I am present at every exchange. I cannot say that the condition of the military personnel depends on the unit they are in. I always state that much depends on the condition of the defenders at the time of their capture, their endurance, and their internal strength.

For those weaker in character and spirit, of course, it is harder. During one exchange, representatives of Ukraine’s KORD unit and the National Police were among those returned. One serviceman appeared to be in good physical shape. I asked him: «How did you manage? What were your conditions?» He replied: «I used all my efforts to keep myself in good shape. Whenever possible, I exercised - push-ups or pull-ups.»

Why are the conditions of Russian prisoners of war so drastically different from those of Ukrainian ones? How do they form the lists for exchange on their side?

The conditions differ because Ukraine is a legal state, which sets us apart from our enemy. We adhere to international conditions, conventions, and legislation. This is why all civilised countries of the world support us.

Freed from captivity, medic Halyna Fedyshyn of the 36th Separate Marine Brigade of the Ukrainian Navy (left)

There are prescribed conditions under which prisoners of war should be held. In Ukraine, there are camps — special places for keeping prisoners. We are not like Russians.

Regarding the formation of exchange lists by the Russians, we cannot comment on this. Sometimes even the lists published by Russia do not always correspond to reality

If we analyse the latest Russian disinformation campaigns, the lists include individuals who have already been freed from captivity. At the same time, there are no severely wounded individuals, those who have been in captivity since the early days of the war, members of the Mariupol garrison, Chornobyl NPP personnel who are still held, or defenders from Zmiinyi Island. This is all done to spread disinformation and provoke our society. In my opinion, they form these lists randomly. Additionally, the Russians sometimes include civilians in the lists who, under the Geneva Conventions, should have been released without any exchange.

What should be the first steps if a loved one goes missing or is taken captive?

The first step when a serviceman goes missing is for the family to receive a notification from territorial recruitment centres if it concerns Armed Forces units. For units of the National Guard, border guards, or police officers, families receive information from their respective units. Next, families should contact law enforcement and file a report stating that their loved one is missing. Naturally, they should also contact the Coordination Headquarters. This is where people can receive clarifications on various issues. The Coordination Headquarters website has a personal account feature, which family members or representatives of the defender must use. It contains the most comprehensive information.

Relatives of prisoners of war and the missing during a meeting with representatives of the Coordination Headquarters on the Treatment of Prisoners of War

We always emphasise that this is a very powerful system where all available information about the defender must be provided, and families must ensure that this account is always active. And, of course, stay in touch.

What should absolutely not be done? Are there known cases where families of captives are approached with fraudulent offers, such as asking for money to return someone from captivity?

We constantly tell people to verify all information carefully with representatives of law enforcement or security units. War is a matter for the military. Unfortunately, fraudsters exploit human grief. Families post information on social networks, and fraudsters use it.

Yuliya Pavliuk during a meeting with the relatives of prisoners of war

My personal advice as a representative of the Coordination Headquarters and a human rights lawyer is never to do this. Information posted online can also be found by representatives of the aggressor country. Fraudsters use it for personal gain through deceitful means, and the enemy uses it to obtain, among other things, intelligence data. Therefore, we advise: «Consult with special services». We know precisely how to follow this path correctly to avoid harming the family, the defender, or the state’s security.

How can the relatives or loved ones of captives assist in their release?

The exchange and return of prisoners are operational special operations that relatives are not involved in. Today, many families unite in community organisations. A coordination council has been established under the Coordination Headquarters, which includes representatives of these community organisations. We understand that the number of missing servicemen is too large for the Coordination Headquarters to handle alone. However, these community organisations will be involved in these processes. Such work is effective.

They also participate in international negotiations and conferences. Furthermore, relatives often find information about captives - possible photographs or videos - in enemy public forums. Verified information is then added to the personal account by the Coordination Headquarters. Such assistance from families is invaluable.

Do public actions in support of prisoners of war help accelerate exchanges, or do they hinder them?

In my opinion, awareness campaigns are appropriate during a time of war. Our nation must demonstrate its unity.

A rally in support of prisoners of war

Moreover, these campaigns are a constant reminder to the world that we are enduring a bloody war, and thousands of prisoners are still held in the aggressor’s country and must be brought home.

Awareness campaigns are for the community. Negotiations and exchanges are handled by the military

However, when campaigns involve accusations and discrediting of state institutions, this undeniably plays into the hands of the Russians.

The UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine reported in October on torture and mistreatment of Ukrainian prisoners of war. At the same time, they noted that they had documented mistreatment of Russian armed forces prisoners of war. How objective is this report?

Ukraine is fully open to international observers, primarily to representatives of the UN and the Red Cross. We provide them with complete assistance. At the same time, the Russian side does not allow these representatives to even interview prisoners of war. This creates a very unequal situation, where we are fully transparent, and representatives can interview Russian prisoners of war and visit places of detention, but our men and women are completely inaccessible. This is a one-sided situation. The claims about the alleged mistreatment of Russian armed forces prisoners are just testimonies and statements. Let me tell you as a former investigator: to prove crimes, you need evidence. And that is not just words. There must be evidence, such as an inspection of the location and the condition of the defender. When we see our men returned with visible injuries, these are documented. This provides a much stronger evidentiary base than just words or statements someone might provide.

Ukrainian soldiers freed from Russian captivity and the Head of the Central Representation of the Coordination Headquarters, Yuliya Pavliuk

Does international humanitarian law work during the war in Ukraine? What are the chances of holding Russian war criminals accountable for violations of the Geneva Conventions?

We need to win the war. All those guilty must and will be punished. If we are speaking about the documentation of war crimes, everyone sees the condition in which Ukrainian prisoners of war return home. The evidence and facts that Ukraine possesses are indisputable. Accountability will happen. It is just a matter of time.

Photos provided by the press service of the Central Representation of the Coordination Headquarters on the Treatment of Prisoners of War

20
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Yuliya Pavliuk: «Every exchange and every negotiation is a special operation»

Nataliia Zhukovska

In 2024, Russia significantly expanded the network of «re-education camps» and increased the militarisation and indoctrination of abducted Ukrainian children. Each of these children, upon returning home, requires rehabilitation - receiving a complex of various forms of assistance. How many Ukrainian children were actually abducted by Russia, what they are taught in the «re-education camps», and what are the prospects for the return of deported Ukrainians - discussed in an interview with Olena Rozvadovska, the founder and head of «Voices of Children» Charitable Foundation.

Nataliia Zhukovska: On October 2nd, seven children aged between 3 and 14 were returned to Ukrainian-controlled territory. All of them were from the Kherson and Crimea regions. This was reported by the head of the Save Ukraine organisation, Mykola Kuleba. And at the end of September, according to the ombudsman Dmytro Lubinets, nine children were also returned home. How many Ukrainian children in total have been abducted by Russia?

Olena Rozvadovska: According to open sources, Russia has deported over 700 thousand people. The official figure from the Ukrainian authorities is around 20 thousand children. This is the number we rely on. However, it is impossible to state the exact number. Since the war continues, there might be one number of children today and another tomorrow. We also do not have access to the occupied territories or Russian territory.

A woman greets her son, who has returned from the occupied territory. Photo: SERGEI CHUZAVKOV/AFP/East News

What happens to Ukrainian children in Russia?

Recently, together with the public association «Ukrainian Network for Children's Rights», the NGO «Regional Human Rights Centre» prepared a report based on specific cases. Our part focused on children's psychological support and rehabilitation after their return. Speaking generally about what happens, according to the children, the scenarios vary.

In some cases, there is group deportation, and they are placed in various child-like camps in Crimea or on the territory of Russia and Belarus. It is known that in the occupied territories of Ukraine, processes are underway to deprive parents of their parental rights according to Russian legislation

Children can be taken under the pretext of so-called threats to life or health without further clarification. Afterwards, they can be placed in foster families. All of this is undoubtedly illegal and constitutes a war crime, which the Ukrainian side is documenting.

How does the process of «liberating» Ukrainian children take place?

Our foundation «Voices of Children» is not involved in the return of children. In fact, each case is individual. There is no return mechanism, just as there is no mechanism for prisoners of war. Generally, the official sides cannot agree on the return of a certain number of children home. This is not that type of case. Russia does not recognise the fact that these are abducted or deported children. According to the Russians, they are rescuing them from shelling. For them, this is a «humanitarian mission». We, however, understand that this is abduction, forced deportation and russification of the nation on RF territory.

Olena Rozvadovska: «Russia does not recognise the fact that these are abducted or deported children». Photo: Telegram channel of Ombudsman Dmytro Lubinets

As of today, it is the relatives of the child who is in Russia that go to retrieve them. Volunteers who work in coordination with the Ministry of Integration, the President's Office, the Ombudsman, and others assist them in their logistics. That is, the relatives themselves search for those children.

What is the greatest difficulty?

The greatest difficulty is that any person who goes to Russia for the child is in a high-risk zone. There is a chance that they may not return with the child because they could be detained. Moreover, the process always involves humiliating and difficult filtration procedures and an extensive number of various checks. The return process may take several weeks or even months. In one case documented in our report, a grandmother was ready to travel to Russia to get her granddaughter. The return of the child lasted 14 months. The woman faced 18-hour interrogations at the Russian border and threats. Russia hindered the process in every way possible. To delay the child’s exit from Russia, the grandmother was made part of a criminal case. The family was only reunited after a second attempt, and only after the girl’s mother reported the obstacles faced in returning the child at a UN Security Council meeting.

The logistics are also challenging. Typically, the journey to the occupied territories or Russia involves passing through several European countries

The difficulty lies in locating, verifying, and finding these children. It is all very monotonous and complex work. According to official statistics published on the «Children of War» website, 388 children have been returned to date. As you can see, the figure is not even in the thousands. The complexity lies in the fact that there is no organised return of, for example, an entire group of children from an institutional-type facility that was taken. However, the greatest difficulty is the time we lose every day. Children who were taken at 2,5 years of age are now 5,5 years old. They may not remember what happened to them. Moreover, for the child, this is already a trauma. The longer they remain in isolation and subjected to active brainwashing, the harder it becomes to bring them back. And we understand that this is exactly what Russia is doing.

In August 2024, 14 children were successfully returned to their homeland. Photo: Telegram channel of Ombudsman Dmytro Lubinets

And of course, when children end up in Russian families and are adopted, these cases are even more difficult. Imagine yourself as a little three-year-old girl. You are brought into a family, and you adapt. At that age, it does not matter where the child lives because they do not understand the situation they have ended up in. They simply live.

In your recent report, you mentioned over 5500 clubs of military-patriotic education and hundreds of «re-education camps» operating in Russia and Belarus. How exactly are Ukrainian children re-educated there? How does indoctrination occur?

This research was conducted by the Regional Human Rights Centre. Their specialists describe the patriotism lessons that the children go through. In the curriculum approved by the Russian Ministry of Education, Ukraine is not depicted as an independent and united state. According to our colleagues’ research, propaganda narratives are embedded not only in textbooks but are also imposed during extracurricular but mandatory classes such as «Conversations About Important Matters» and «Lessons of Courage». The «cadet and Cossack classes» operate within schools, aimed at preparing students for military service.

One manifestation of political indoctrination is the activities of so-called patriotic and military-patriotic movements

In Russia, so-called «re-education camps» also operate. Russia spares no expense on their operation. They are very professional in their information warfare. This machine is in full motion at every level. Every teacher, adult, and school administrator knows where to get the «correct» information that needs to be conveyed to the children. And even if someone turns on the television, they will find confirmation of everything they have already been told. In these camps, there is a system of so-called patriotic education. They introduce children to their «heroes», teach them, and sing the Russian anthem. In doing so, they erase national self-identity. The Russians' goal is to make Ukrainian children see themselves as part of the Russian people.

What methods does Russia use on Ukrainian children to make them literally forget that they are Ukrainians?

It is primarily about psychological and moral pressure. Our psychologist, who worked with a boy who was returned to Ukraine, also spoke about how he endured physical abuse and torture. I know that human rights defenders are recording even more severe and horrific cases. The hardest situation in Russia is for those children who openly demonstrate their pro-Ukrainian stance. They are constantly subjected to moral pressure and intimidation. The Russians calculated that the children would break. They were constantly told: «No one cares about you, no one will come for you. You have been forgotten. If you return, you will be recognised as collaborators or as those who worked with Russia and will be sent to prison». The children, not knowing whether it was true or not, thought: «Maybe I really will be imprisoned for being in Russia?». Any scary thought can take root in a stressed mind.

Olena Rozvadovska: «The hardest situation in Russia is for those children who openly demonstrate their pro-Ukrainian stance». Photo: Telegram channel of Ombudsman Dmytro Lubinets

Freedom House, together with ZMINA. The Centre for Human Rights and the Regional Centre for Human Rights presented new evidence to the International Court regarding the direct involvement of the Lukashenko regime in the displacement, political indoctrination, and militarisation of education for over 2200 children from occupied Ukrainian territories. How can this evidence contribute to the return of Ukrainian children?

Firstly, it is about documenting violations. Cases in The Hague can take decades to review. Despite this, someone must continue documenting these violations. It is also about increasing international pressure. If no one speaks about this, documents it, or submits it, it may seem like the problem is resolved, and there are no issues. This needs to remain in the public domain and be discussed at various levels.

Of course, we would all like for this to be resolved in one day, and for Russia to be excluded even from the UN. However, we understand that it cannot be done so quickly

I believe that it is absolutely the right path for both state authorities and public organisations to continue working on documenting, collecting violations, and passing them on to the relevant institutions. As a result of documented violations, arrest warrants have been issued for Putin and Lvova-Belova. I am confident that Russian sanctions will only intensify. It is important not to grow tired of this work. Every Ukrainian, at their own level, must shout about the genocide that Russia is committing in today's world, right in the heart of Europe.

What is Ukraine doing to ensure that Russia is held accountable under international law for the abduction and illegal adoption of Ukrainian children?

Ukraine is doing everything within its power. International coalitions for the return of children are being created. International groups of prosecutors and investigators are working to document information on violations. Ukraine is regularly represented on various international platforms.

Olena Rozvadovska during a speech at a meeting of ombudsmen from 16 countries, human rights defenders and diplomats in Vienna. Photo: private archive

A wide range of measures are being taken to hold Russia accountable for its crimes - and not only those concerning children. It is unfortunate that these processes are not as swift as we would like them to be.

Your foundation, «Voices of Children», has been active since 2015. How have these «voices» changed since Russia's full-scale invasion?

Since 2015, I have been working as a volunteer with children in the east of the country along the entire frontline, and in 2019, we officially registered as a foundation. There have been many changes over nearly 10 years. In 2015, I was alone, but now our team consists of 220 people. The difference is that in 2015, the war was confined to two regions, but today it spans the entire country. Another change is that as of 2019, we had between 50 and 100 children under our care in various frontline locations and just one psychological support programme. It was very localised and targeted work. We travelled to remote villages where buses did not go. After 24 February 2022, when drones and missiles began flying across the whole of Ukraine, the format of our work changed drastically. The frontline today is more intense and much larger in scale.

Children during sessions conducted by staff from the «Voices of Children» foundation. Photo: private archive

Today, our centres are located in the largest cities along the frontline - from Chernihiv to Kharkiv, Zaporizhzhia, Dnipro, Kryvyi Rih, and Mykolaiv. It is not easy to work there due to the constant shelling. However, the children living there need socialisation. Their schooling is online, and they do not go anywhere - so our sessions are a small escape for them. War, whether large or small, always impacts children.

Why do parents return with their children to areas under shelling despite the danger?

It is hard to understand, but that is how it is. Everyone has their own story. You cannot say that all people have lost their minds about returning to dangerous cities and villages. That is not true! Sane, healthy, and thoughtful people are returning. The reasons vary greatly. Many simply could not settle elsewhere. People leave, spend all their money on renting accommodation, fail to find work, and return. This is the reality for many families. Some remain or return to dangerous regions because they have bedridden parents they cannot leave behind. That is why I never judge these people, although I am convinced that it is wrong to remain under shelling, especially with children.

Psychologists from the «Voices of Children» foundation constantly work with children affected by the war. Photo: private archive

How do you work with parents who refuse to evacuate with their children from dangerous zones?

It is a difficult process. If adults do not want to leave the area, they simply sign a refusal to evacuate. Parents bear primary responsibility for their children. Often, they refuse out of fear. Here, the state has not done enough to ensure that everyone has a clear understanding of where these people are going. They need to have at least some certainty in emergency situations. There is another group of parents who simply abuse their position and manipulate their children. Generally, these are the adults who do not take care of their children and are not interested in saving their mental health and lives. The state mechanisms must also work in these cases.

These children need to be removed. This is the job of social services, but it is not easy for them to work on the frontline. Many factors have come together to create the situation as it stands

I remember one story where we moved a family with three children from a frontline village and bought them a house in a rear area. A year later, they returned to their village. In this situation, there was nothing we could do because we do not have the right to remove children from their families.

What is the current psychological state of the children? Does it differ depending on where they live in Ukraine?

Various factors influence the psychological state of children. Certainly, the place of residence plays a role. There is a difference between living in Uzhhorod and living in Zaporizhzhia. These are two completely different realities. Obviously, the more dangerous the area of residence, the more threatening the situation for their mental health. However, much also depends on the family. A child senses the anxiety of adults. Parents are the window to the outside world for children. It is not just the rockets that scare them during war, but also their mother’s reaction to them. The presence of education, peer groups and opportunities for communication also have an impact on a child's mental health. Children in Kharkiv and Zaporizhzhia suffer greatly. Recently, we gathered children’s dreams in Zaporizhzhia, and one girl wrote: «I want this online schooling to finally end».

A session with children conducted by the «Voices of Children» foundation. Photo: private archive

Our psychologists report that today, children are more frequently presenting with anxiety and depressive states, especially teenagers. Some children develop enuresis, hand tremors, and sleep disturbances. Others, due to stress or traumatic experiences, may exhibit eating behaviour disorders.

What do you think the state should do to work with children currently abroad, and how should they be brought back?

We understand that in addition to returning children abducted by Russia, we also need to work with those who are currently displaced abroad. Ukraine must be highly interested in ensuring that all working-age people, and not only children, return. For example, we often receive requests for online psychological assistance from parents abroad, as they are looking for Ukrainian-speaking specialists for their children. It is no secret that living abroad was a dream for some, but for many, it is not a fairytale.

A very large number of people dream of returning home. However, urging them to do so now is certainly wrong, as the war continues

For people to return, the economy must function, jobs need to be created, and education must develop. But first and foremost, the war must end with our victory.

Children at the «Voices of Children» camp in Zakarpattia. Photo: private archive

Even the country with the best economy in the world cannot function normally when drones hit schools. It is abnormal and wrong. Today, hubs need to be created so that people abroad can still feel connected to Ukraine and remain within the Ukrainian information space. Moreover, we must constantly keep the world's attention focused and, of course, talk about the fact that Ukraine alone cannot counter Russian propaganda and stop such a powerful enemy.

Main photo: AA/ABACA/Abaca/East News

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