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20
хв

«Germany - an unfavourable place for entrepreneurs, hence Ukrainians bring their social and charitable initiatives to Berlin»

At the onset of the great war, Marharyta Korovina was buying food for her elderly neighbours in her native Kyiv. Now, she is one of the founders of a public organisation in Germany operating in Berlin that promotes Ukrainian culture there, and serves as an assistant to a German designer, activist, and great friend of Ukraine, Frank Wilde. About adapting to Germany and what the Ukrainian community does there - in an interview for Sestry

Kseniya Minchuk

Marharyta Korovina at one of the anti-Russian protests on Ukraine's Independence Day in central Berlin, 2024. Private archive

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«In Berlin, you pay an agent up to 5 thousand euros just for the right to rent a flat»

- On the morning of 24 February, my sister called me: «The war has begun». I hung up, looked out the window, and saw a four-lane traffic jam, recalls Marharyta Korovina, organiser of public events and a Ukrainian culture festival in Berlin. - At that time, I lived with my mother. My sister said they would take me, but there was nowhere to take my mother. Understanding that I could not leave my mother alone, I refused to leave.

There were fewer and fewer people in our district. Within days, the neighbourhood was deserted, with only the elderly left. And I started helping them. I used my savings to buy them food. Getting groceries at that time was quite a challenge. My task was to find bread for my mother, my neighbours, and myself. At «Silpo» (Ukrainian supermarket chain), they gave out one loaf per person. So I searched all over our district. And I believed the war would soon end...

Empty shelves at «Silpo» immediately after the full-scale invasion, February 2022

I also created a TikTok account where talked to Russians through chat roulette. I asked them why they had attacked, what they wanted from Ukraine. They gave all kinds of absurd answers, often aggressive. It was my social experiment to counter the «not all Russians are like that» narrative - I posted conversations with Russians in the public domain. In the first months of the full-scale invasion, my account went viral. Some people used my materials to edit videos for their Telegram channels. Some videos gained a million views in one day. Then I got banned.

By summer 2022, I realised my savings were running out, and I had no income. The office where I had worked before the war had closed. A quick decision was necessary.

Since the situation in Kyiv was already more or less calm, I made the difficult decision to go to Barcelona, as our fund's hub was there. Besides, my sister already lived in Spain. I went there hoping to be among ambitious, motivated and active people but found something entirely different: in the Spanish office, like in an ordinary accounting office, everyone worked from 9 to 3 and then hurried home. I could not focus. I went to Berlin for a couple of days to volunteer... and stayed.

I had no friends or relatives in Berlin, but I was captivated by the enormous Ukrainian creative community here. At every corner, Ukrainian flags: on official buildings, universities, town halls, and even just on the balconies of residential houses. I was amazed by the scale of support for Ukraine.

Moving to Germany can be compared to a person learning to walk and talk again after an injury. You seem like an adult, but your opportunities are like those of a two-year-old child. For a long time, I felt like a non-functional part of society. But now, it seems I have reached the acceptance stage.

Berlin 2022. The Beginning

A significant problem in Berlin is housing. I was lucky not to live in «Tegel». This is a non-operational airport where a camp for refugees was set up using tents, and nearly everyone arriving from Ukraine passed through it. Using the programme for Ukrainian refugees, I lived for the first two months with a young German family. Simultaneously, I searched for a flat.

Finding accommodation in overcrowded Berlin is a task with a star, so social networking works best here (word of mouth). Ukrainians created Telegram channels and found local resources that worked better than the official housing search. However, estate agents are also used here, and that is another corrupt scheme. Agents often ask for 1-5 thousand euros as a «provision» - a one-time cash payment directly to the agent, not included in the contract. Essentially, a cash bribe for the right to rent a flat. Perhaps agents artificially create such demand that people are ready to pay any money just to get a housing contract. An open flat viewing in Berlin is a queue of a hundred people. You pay the agent to be prioritised. Personally, I found a flat by talking to people because I kept asking everyone about housing.

Germany is an entirely different world. I thought there would be technological progress here. Instead, everything is slow, unclear and bureaucratic. This was a shock to me. I know that even most Germans are dissatisfied with this.

«I can only do things related to Ukraine»

- Was it difficult to adapt to Germany?

- In Berlin, I quickly got to know interesting people. We began meeting and creating projects. I felt there were resources here through which I could do much good for Ukraine. Because I can not do anything unrelated to volunteering or Ukraine. When you constantly think about the war at home, other things barely concern you.

Imagine, here in Berlin, I have seen people from Mariupol who still carry keys to their flats in Ukraine, even though those no longer exist

Regarding the adaptation of Ukrainians in Berlin, I have a basis for comparison - with Barcelona, Paris and Lisbon. Kyiv had a special relationship with Berlin even before the war, so, unsurprisingly, many cultural figures, artists and activists relocated here. Today, Berlin feels like an extension of the Golden Gate and Podil. Events here easily gather Ukrainian music, food, and goods. We even received a proposal to hold «Kurazh Bazar» in Berlin, but we organised something in a similar format called «Motanka».

In Frank Wilde's legendary elevator

Ukrainians in Berlin are what keeps me here: active people who tirelessly keep Ukraine in the informational spotlight, fight against disinformation, talk about Ukrainian culture and history, shout about the repressions our nation suffered under the Soviets, and open the eyes of the «concerned» and not-so-concerned Europeans to the proximity of the war and Russia’s colonial, imperialist, and terrorist nature.

Moreover, many Ukrainians in Germany are already integrated and well-acquainted with local sentiments. Most such individuals now occupy leadership positions in Ukrainian organisations, cultural institutions, embassies, etc.

Over the past three years in Berlin, several Ukrainian restaurants, beauty salons, and a gallery have opened, but the largest focus is on public organisations. People did not bring their businesses here since Germany is not the most favourable place for entrepreneurs. Instead, they brought their social and charitable initiatives. Everything here revolves around culture, politics and information.

In 2023, together with German, Georgian and Ukrainian like-minded individuals, we registered a public organisation here called Mizelium. By law, Ukrainians can not establish their own organisation in Germany. Its composition must include Germans. What do we do? Initially, we collected humanitarian aid and sent it to Ukraine. Then we shifted to organising festivals, concerts and workshops to introduce Europeans to Ukrainian culture and make it trendy.

I am learning German and will soon take the B2 level exam. I plan to obtain grant funds for our cultural projects.

Our main idea is to show the colossal difference between Ukrainian and Russian cultures. Many Germans do not distinguish between them

A German acquaintance once said he did not even know that beyond Poland there was another country. He thought it was immediately Russia

The second anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion in Berlin, 2024. Photo: Shutterstock

«We created the largest Ukrainian culture festival in Europe - for 10 thousand people»

- Tell us about the projects in Berlin you participated in. Why is this important to you?

- In 2023, we organised the largest Ukrainian culture festival in Europe, «Motanka». A year earlier, in 2022, we launched its pilot version. We chose an underground location, little-known even to Berliners - a place where hippies live: a river, yurts, a bar made of planks, a small stage. We arranged an exhibition in a boathouse garage.

A year later, we organised a large-scale festival.

Six floors of various formats: music, cinema, exhibitions, a pop-up market of Ukrainian brands, food, discussions about culture and politics. Over three days, about 10 thousand people attended our festival

We created this event without grant funding. We offered collaboration to Ukrainians from the cultural sphere in Berlin, and all of them agreed. We did not expect such a scale but were happy. The location was provided to us for free. We enlisted the help of partners and sponsors who provided free services totalling approximately 300,000 euros.

I would call Berlin a decision-making hub. Many politically significant events happen here.

Now, in 2024, the intensity of Ukrainian informational events is still quite high. However, greater involvement is desirable because, for example, there are fewer and fewer people at protests and rallies.

There is an event called «Café «Kyiv» with a political focus. Last time, Ursula von der Leyen participated, and Vitali Klitschko was present. Our ambassadors also joined. Panel discussions were held, the documentary «20 Days in Mariupol» was shown, and there was an exhibition titled «Yolka», which had been with us on Maidan in 2014 - there was a queue at the entrance. The first event was held at a place called «Moscow Restaurant». On the day of the event, this name was symbolically covered with a banner reading «Café Kyiv». Politicians attend this event to emphasise their pro-Ukrainian image.

Our «Motanka» was created to engage people who unknowingly discovered Ukraine. Through collaborations with local artists, brands, and musicians, we managed to unite an audience and subtly involve thousands of Berliners, showing them the creative side of Ukraine without alienating them with the topic of war.

Ukrainian culture festival in Berlin «Motanka 2023»

«In the state I have been in for almost three years, Frank Wilde has been in nearly his entire life»

- How do Germans now view everything Ukrainian?

- Until 1989, Berlin was divided by a wall, and the eastern part of the city still significantly differs from the western part. Even election results reflect this. Here, people romanticise the Soviet Union and Russian politics. Even the generation that did not experience life in the USSR somehow feels nostalgic about it. Therefore, their attitude towards everything Ukrainian, naturally, is not positive.

Russia, thanks to friendly relations with Merkel, deeply ingrained itself in the minds of Germans, and people «outside politics» miss it because kebabs used to cost 3,50 euros under her rule, and now they cost 8. Gas was also cheaper.

There are Germans who still feel «backed into a corner» because of World War II. This has led to the quiet emergence of a second wave of Nazism, which is now breaking out of the underground. For instance, the popularity of the AfD party is growing. This pro-Russian party plays on Germans' emotions (the main ideological theses of the AfD are directed against European integration and immigration - Edit.)

In general, discrimination based on nationality is prohibited by law in Germany (this is stated in the constitution). Therefore, no German would do this openly or transparently. I have not noticed such conflicts here.

However, there are also many conscientious Germans who are interested in Ukraine, attend Ukrainian demonstrations, speak at them, and provide support.

The first Ukrainian culture festival «Motanka 2022»

- You have been working with Frank Wilde, a designer and a great friend of Ukraine, for over two years. What is the most important aspect of this collaboration for you?

- I learned about Frank while sitting in a bomb shelter in Kyiv, before I left. When I arrived in Berlin, I met him at one of the events dedicated to Ukraine. He literally attends all such events. When we organised the first «Motanka», I suggested he hold his own auction. He agreed and donated part of the proceeds to support Ukraine.

I offered him my help with PR and managing his communications. Now, I am his volunteer manager.

Frank played a key role in my stay in Berlin. He is a very wise person. In the state I have been in for almost three years, he has been in nearly his entire life. He is always fighting. In collaborating with Frank, I am motivated by gratitude. I want to repay him on behalf of all Ukrainians for what he does for us.

Visiting Marharyta's mother with Frank Wilde, Kyiv

«I dream of reviving my grandmother's village»

- What helps you hold on? What do you dream about?

- That is a good question. I still live with my pre-war dreams. I have a country house in the Sumy region, which I have always loved. My grandmother used to live there, and it was always cosy and cheerful at her place. When she passed away, we bought a house next door. Growing up, I saw how the village changed. It began to decline because many people left. Even then, I dreamed of reviving this village.

During the Covid lockdown, I went there for a month and saw that people had nothing to do or entertain themselves with. I started thinking about how to change this.

I arranged with the local cultural centre to use a space to create a place for young people. I also planned to organise a rural retreat for city dwellers - giving rides in a cart, teaching people to herd geese and cows, and holding a rural rave party. Additionally, I wanted to find grandmothers who knit, embroider, or create other interesting handmade items and help them sell their crafts. Handmade work is very popular now. I even created a social media account for this village. Then the war started. But when I feel sad or lose hope, I open my laptop and write down my ideas about the village. This is now my way of recovering.

With grandmother

Photos: private archive and the heroine's Instagram

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A journalist, writer, videographer, content creator and podcast author. She has participated in social projects aimed at raising awareness about domestic violence. She has led her own social initiatives, ranging from entertainment projects to a documentary film about an inclusive theatre, which she independently authored and edited. At «Hromadske Radio», she created podcasts, photo reports and video stories. Since the full-scale invasion of Ukraine, she has begun collaborating with international publications, attending conferences and meetings across Europe to share insights about the war in Ukraine and journalism during these challenging times.

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Українці сьогодні ставлять собі обґрунтоване запитання: хто відбудовуватиме Україну, якщо біженці не повернуться? В умовах драматичної демографічної ситуації це питання звучить особливо болісно. Проте останні дані з Польщі хоч і можуть на перший погляд занепокоїти, насправді розповідають іншу історію — не про втрату, а про неймовірну силу та потенціал, що гартується на чужині й чекає на свій час.

Звіт компанії Deloitte про становище українських біженців у Польщі змальовує картину надзвичайної стійкості й рішучості. Пам'ятаймо, про кого ми говоримо. Це не анонімна міграція. Це насамперед українські жінки й діти. Аж 67% домогосподарств утримують самотні жінки, які в чужій країні взяли на свої плечі долю всієї родини, борючись із травмою війни та щоденною непевністю щодо долі близьких. Їхня здатність стати на ноги та знайти роботу в таких складних умовах є першим потужним доказом сили українського духу.

Доказ цінності, а не аргумент залишатися

Внесок українців у польську економіку вражає. У 2024 році вони додали до польського ВВП аж 2,7%, що відповідає сумі майже 99 мільярдів злотих доданої вартості

Завдяки сплаченим українцями податкам і внескам доходи державного бюджету зросли на 2,94%. Ці цифри не слід сприймати як втрату для України. Навпаки — це твердий доказ величезної цінності українського людського капіталу. Доказ того, що українці навіть у несприятливих умовах здатні творити, будувати й робити величезний внесок у розвиток. А отже, можна зробити висновок, що цей самий людський капітал може стати ключовим ресурсом у процесі відбудови вільної України.

Ба більше, аналіз спростовує міф про нібито конкуренцію. Дані показують, що в повітах, де частка біженців у зайнятості зросла на один відсотковий пункт, зайнятість громадян Польщі зросла на 0,5%, а безробіття знизилося на 0,3%. Виявилося, що присутність українських працівників стала для польської економіки стимулом до підвищення продуктивності й дала полякам можливість перейти на краще оплачувані та більш відповідальні посади.

Надзвичайно промовистим є також професійне зростання самих українців. Медіана їхньої заробітної плати протягом двох років зросла з 3100 злотих до 4000 злотих нетто, наблизившись до рівня 84% медіани по країні. Це доказ не лише рішучості, але й блискавичної адаптації. Не менш важливим є той факт, що біженці переважно утримують себе самі. Дослідження UNHCR за 2024 рік показують, що аж 80% доходів у їхніх домогосподарствах походять від праці. Соціальні виплати, переважно 800+ на дітей, становлять лише 14% їхніх доходів, і ця частка не зросла попри підвищення суми виплати. 

Це один з найшвидших процесів економічної інтеграції в історії сучасних міграцій у Європі

Цю картину співпраці, яка приносить користь обом сторонам, підтверджують не лише аналітики. Її можна почути й у голосах польських підприємців, які щодня бачать, як нова енергія живить їхні компанії.

«Польща перебуває в комфортній ситуації, бо вона не лише допомагає людям у потребі, а й заробляє завдяки їхній праці. Рідко трапляється, щоб у такому масштабі етика йшла пліч-о-пліч з прагматизмом», — коментує власник польської фірми, яка працевлаштовує чимало працівників з України, переважно жінок. Він просить зберегти анонімність, бо «останні голоси від нового мешканця Бельведеру вказують на інший напрямок».

Слова підприємця чудово віддзеркалюють парадокс, у якому опинилася Польща. Його прохання про анонімність не є випадковим. У періоди виборчих кампаній побоювання, пов'язані з міграцією, стають легким політичним паливом для частини політичної сцени. Гасла про нібито «відбирання робочих місць» чи «надмірне навантаження на бюджет» хоч і суперечать реальним даним, часом свідомо використовуються для мобілізації електорату. Це створює атмосферу невизначеності, в якій навіть позитивні економічні факти відсуваються на другий план гучнішим, негативним наративом.

Скарб, що чекає на розкриття — в Україні

Однак найважливіший висновок зі звіту — це величезний, досі не використаний потенціал. Аж 40% біженців працездатного віку мають вищу освіту, але лише 12% з них працюють на посадах, що вимагають таких кваліфікацій (порівняно з 37% серед поляків). Основні бар'єри:

  • Мова: Лише 18% біженців заявляють про вільне володіння польською мовою.
  • Регуляції: У регульованих професіях, як-от лікар чи архітектор, працюють лише 3,6% біженців (серед поляків — 10,6%).
  • Громадянство: Багато професій у державному секторі (наприклад, вчитель, медсестра, медичний рятувальник) залишаються формально закритими для осіб без польського паспорта незалежно від їхньої фактичної кваліфікації.

Аналітики підрахували, що якби Польща розблокувала бодай половину цього потенціалу, її економіка отримала б щонайменше 6 мільярдів злотих на рік, з яких понад 2,5 мільярди надійшли б безпосередньо до держбюджету. Це сума, порівняна з великою податковою реформою.

Парадокс інтеграції

Сьогодні працевлаштовано 69% дорослих біженців працездатного віку, а серед жінок цей показник становить 70% — лише на 2 відсоткові пункти менше, ніж серед польок. Однак проблеми починаються у віковій групі 25-39 років, де українські матері працюють значно рідше через брак системної підтримки у догляді за малими дітьми.

Цікаво, що дані демонструють певний парадокс. З одного боку, професійна інтеграція та знаходження нормальної роботи призводять до того, що біженці рідше планують повернення в Україну. З іншого боку — доступ до освіти та державних послуг, тобто соціальна інтеграція, збільшує готовність до повернення, оскільки дає відчуття стабільності й здатність свідомо планувати майбутнє. Це означає, що, допомагаючи людям знайти себе в суспільстві, їх не обов’язково «відбирають» в України — радше дають їм сили для ухвалення свідомого рішення про повернення, коли це стане можливим.

Саме досвід, здобутий за кордоном, може стати безцінною інвестицією в майбутнє. Це знання стандартів ЄС, ділові контакти, нові навички. Це капітал, який повернеться в Україну разом з людьми — майбутніми підприємцями та лідерами відбудови.

Однак у всіх цих дебатах про відсотки ВВП та стратегії найрідше чути голос тих, кого це стосується найбільше. Їхнє почуття безпеки крихке, бо залежить не лише від економічної стабільності, а й від соціальної атмосфери. А вона в свою чергу буває отруєна політичною грою, в якій гасла на кшталт «час закінчити з преференціями» чи «захист кордонів від напливу чужинців» стають інструментом для здобуття підтримки. Це відчуття «небажаного гостя» найкраще передає допис з форуму української діаспори:

«Якщо ти біженка, яка втратила все, що нажила за життя, чоловік пішов на фронт, а ти з дітьми мусила панічно тікати за кордон і день у день живеш питанням, чи буде до чого і до кого повертатися, чи все ж залишитися в Польщі, бо тут поки що безпечно, хоча дедалі частіше відчуваєш, що ти тут небажана гостя (...) то чи почувалася б ти в безпеці?»

Ці слова нагадують, що ключем до всього є перемога та створення в Україні безпечного, справедливого і перспективного майбутнього. Це сила, яка може повернутися і в майбутньому живити Україну. Однак, ключовим буде створення умов, які дозволять цим людям безпечно жити й використовувати здобутий досвід у власній країні.

20
хв

Сила, що чекає на повернення: українці в Польщі — не втрачений, а загартований потенціал для відбудови

Єжи Вуйцік

Joanna Mosiej: I would like to begin our conversation with your family history, because on many levels it serves as a metaphor for our Polish-Ukrainian relations. I am referring to your ancestors, the Szeptycki brothers. Roman (Andrey Sheptytsky - head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, Metropolitan of Galicia, Archbishop of Lviv (1901–1944) - Edit.) converted to the Greek Catholic faith, entered a monastery, and later became Metropolitan. Another brother, Stanisław, first served in the Austrian army, and after the war became a general in the Polish army. Both were patriots, individuals deeply devoted to the countries they served. And they maintained a fraternal bond.

Professor Andrzej Szeptycki: Of the five Szeptycki brothers, two identified themselves as Ukrainians - Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky and Blessed Father Klymentiy - and three were Poles. I am referring to General Stanisław Szeptycki and also his brothers, Aleksander and my great-grandfather Leon. Metropolitan Andrey and Father Klymentiy regularly came on holiday to rest at the family home in Prylbichi in the Yavoriv district, where my great-grandfather Leon Szeptycki later lived. Despite their national differences, they maintained good relations with each other until the end of their lives.

Professor Andrzej Szeptycki. Photo: Michal Zebrowski / East News

They proved to us that different national identities can coexist without excluding one another.

I believe it was also very important that in the case of each of them, national identity was a significant element of life, but not the only one. In the case of Metropolitan Andrey and Father Klymentiy, their vocation and religious choices were primary as clergy. General Stanisław Szeptycki, as a soldier of that time, first served in the Austro-Hungarian and then in the Polish army and sought to serve his country well. They were certainly patriots - of each nation with which they identified. On the other hand, it is very important that they were certainly not nationalists. And this allowed them to respect different views while remaining close to one another.

Was such a legacy, a borderland identity, a value or a curse for your family? How does it define you?

During the communist period, it was somewhat of a challenge, a burden. The communist authorities viewed representatives of the former noble class negatively. In the case of the Szeptycki family, this was further combined with a very strong propaganda narrative directed against Ukrainians in Poland. And, of course, directed personally against Metropolitan Andrey, who was portrayed as a Ukrainian nationalist and spiritual father of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. During the communist period, and even in the 1990s, relatives quite regularly heard that Szeptycki is a Banderite». Nowadays, this has practically disappeared. I experienced this myself in 2023 when I was running an election campaign. The few voter reactions to my name were generally positive. In this sense, it is a significant change.

Apart from comments on social media, of course.

Yes, there I am often called Szeptycki - a Ukrainian, a Banderite. And surely there is a portion of society that will always react in this way. Returning to how it defines me, ever since our student years, my cousins and I have quite often travelled around Ukraine.

Some of us needed only one trip, while others stayed longer, for life. My cousin moved to Lviv a few years ago at the age of 50. Another cousin established the Szeptycki Family Foundation, which became actively involved in supporting Ukraine after February 24th 2022.

Photo: Karina Krystosiak/REPORTER

How do you explain this outburst of solidarity among us in 2022?

I believe there are three important factors. Firstly, the simple human need to help. Altruism which arises when we witness the suffering of others and react without much consideration.

Secondly, the shared experience of Russian imperialism. This has always resonated with Polish society. It is worth recalling the Polish response to the war in Chechnya - the reception of refugees, the clear sympathies. Or the year 2008 and the war in Georgia. Poland does not have strong cultural or geographical ties with Georgia, yet the reaction was vivid. We remember President Lech Kaczyński’s visit to Tbilisi and his prophetic words: today Georgia, tomorrow Ukraine, the day after, perhaps the Baltic states, and then Poland. But most importantly - and in my opinion decisively - is the fact that none of this arose in a vacuum. This solidarity did not suddenly sprout in a desert, but on rather fertile ground which Poles and Ukrainians had been cultivating together over the past three decades.

From the 1990s, both sides carried out considerable work to develop interpersonal contacts. In 2022, many Poles were not helping «refugees». We were, for the most part, simply helping friends

Keeping in mind the great importance of the prior presence of Ukrainian refugees who had arrived in Poland since 2014, economic migrants from Ukraine, and the Ukrainian minority, primarily descendants of the victims of Operation Vistula.

Of course. Since the beginning of the war, that is, since 2014, or even since 2004, the Ukrainian minority in Poland has played an important role in supporting Ukraine - collecting funds, purchasing equipment, sending that equipment to the frontline. And receiving Ukrainian military refugees after February 24th 2022. Undoubtedly, the role of this community cannot be overestimated.

Precisely. You have been researching Polish-Ukrainian relations for many years. How have they changed? How has the Poles’ perception of Ukrainians changed?

It has been a long process. From the establishment of mutual contacts in the 1990s, through the Orange Revolution, the Revolution of Dignity - up to 2022. And, on the other hand, through the long-term presence in Poland of a significant group of economic migrants from Ukraine. Let us not forget that none of this would have been possible without the consistency of Poland’s Eastern policy and the legacy of the thought of the Paris-based «Kultura» and Jerzy Giedroyc personally. This belief in the importance of Ukraine, the importance of good relations, the necessity of support.

We were the first country to recognise Ukraine’s independence.

And it is worth mentioning a very important, albeit little-known, moment in Polish-Ukrainian relations on the eve of the USSR’s collapse, namely the participation of the Polish delegation of civic committees in the 1st Congress of the People’s Movement in Kyiv in 1989. The presence of representatives of the Polish civic committees, including Adam Michnik and Bogdan Borusewicz, was a symbolic gesture of support for Ukraine from Polish «Solidarity» at a time when Poland was still part of the Warsaw Pact and Ukraine still within the USSR.

Photo: Łukasz Gdak/East News

And what were the subsequent milestones of our cooperation?

First and foremost, the three key events of the past two decades, which I have already mentioned: the Orange Revolution, the Revolution of Dignity, and the full-scale Russian invasion in 2022. Each of these was met in Poland with clear public interest and a broad response of solidarity.

A sense of shared destiny, the legacy of Solidarity and the struggle for independence played an important role. At times, analogies were even drawn: it was said that Ukrainians in 2022 found themselves in a situation similar to that faced by Poles during the Second World War. The exhibition «Warsaw - Mariupol: cities of ruins, cities of struggle, cities of hope» was one such attempt to draw this symbolic parallel: cities levelled to the ground, the suffering of civilians, resistance. But it was also accompanied by another, no less important conviction: that Ukrainians today are facing something we, fortunately, are not experiencing - a classic violent conflict with Russian imperialism. And this solidarity manifested itself in Polish assistance.

What can we do to ensure this unprecedented solidarity seen in 2022 is not wasted? Today, in addition to the demons of the past, such as Volyn’ and the issue of exhumations, there are pressing social and economic problems.

Firstly, it is important to realise that no surge of solidarity lasts forever. The enthusiasm for Ukrainians that erupted after the beginning of the Russian invasion has gradually waned, and we are now in a phase where tension and fatigue are beginning to accumulate.

For most of its recent history, Poland has been a country of emigration - people left in search of work, bread, a better life. The issue of immigration was virtually absent from public debate. Today, the situation has changed. Around two million Ukrainians live in Poland - both economic migrants and people who fled the war. This is an entirely new social reality and a challenge to which we must respond consciously. Other challenges, including economic ones, must also be taken into account.

The pandemic, war and inflation - all of these influence the public sentiment. When people start running out of money, their willingness to show solidarity with «new neighbours» may weaken

Especially since they are constantly exposed to populist narratives claiming that immigrants take away our social benefits and our places in the queue for doctors. And that Ukraine does not agree to exhumations.

Yes, this is precisely why Polish-Ukrainian relations are no longer merely a matter of the past, but one of the key challenges for the future of Central and Eastern Europe. It is therefore important to defuse historical disputes, such as those concerning exhumations. It is very good that an agreement has recently been reached on this issue. Even if discussions on exhumations in the short term revive the Volyn’ issue, in the long term they will help resolve it. However, it is important to recognise - and I say this quite often to both Polish and Ukrainian partners - that at present, the key issue is not history. A major challenge lies in the broad economic matters related to Ukraine’s accession to the European Union.

We must recognise that Ukraine is not a failed state from which only unskilled workers or refugees come to Poland.

Despite the war, Ukraine has advantages in many areas that will pose a challenge to Poland when it joins the EU single market

Of course, Ukraine's accession to the EU is in Poland’s strategic interest. However, these are developments that we must be aware of, which we must closely observe and take action to prevent conflicts in these areas.

Therefore, at present, the real challenge is not the issue of the Volyn’ massacre, but rather how to adapt the common agricultural policy to the potential of Ukrainian agriculture. Naturally, it is also essential to prevent the escalation of social antagonism.

Photo: Jakub Orzechowski / Agencja Wyborcza.pl

How does Polish-Ukrainian academic cooperation appear against this background?

Today, around 9% of students at Polish universities are international, almost half of whom are Ukrainian. The academic world, in line with its longstanding European tradition, is multinational. Universities have always been places of openness and tolerance; today, they develop programmes for support, equality and diversity. These are initiatives and responsibilities undertaken by the universities themselves.

Of course, there are always areas that can be improved. I am thinking, for example, of efforts to achieve better integration within the university. It often happens that we have two or three student communities living separately – students from Poland, English-speaking students and students from the East, mainly Ukrainians and Belarusians. We are working to ensure that these two or three communities come closer together.

You are responsible for international cooperation. In Ukraine, claims are heard that Poland is «draining» its intellectual capital. This is a well-known phenomenon here too - for years, it has been said that the best Polish academics leave for the West. What does this circulation between Poland and Ukraine look like?

Before February 24th 2022, around 500 Ukrainian academics worked in Polish universities. After the outbreak of war, this number doubled. Initially, there were special support measures - help with finding housing, work, a safe place - but quite quickly we realised that a change of perspective was needed.

Our goal is not a brain drain, but a brain circulation - a circulation of knowledge, ideas and experience

This is precisely why today, as a ministry, we support projects involving researchers and institutions from both countries. Those that build a joint research space.

A concrete example of such cooperation is the project of Vasyl Stefanyk Precarpathian National University in Ivano-Frankivsk, which, together with the Centre for East European Studies, rebuilt the pre-war university observatory «White Elephant» on Mount Pip Ivan. A functioning research station was created from ruins. Now the two universities are seeking funding for a telescope, the third stage of the project. This is an example of concrete cooperation based on partnership, not asymmetry.

Another example is Mykulychyn, a village in the Ukrainian Carpathians, where a Polish-Ukrainian youth meeting centre is being built. During my recent visit there, the first meeting took place with the participation of students from several Ukrainian universities and the University of Warsaw. It is in such places - in conversations, debates, joint projects - that the next generation of mutual understanding is born.

There is a real chance that this generation will get to know each other not through stereotypes, but through experience and culture.

Yes, but much work still lies ahead. I remember a study conducted, I believe, in 2021. Poles were asked which Ukrainian authors they knew, and Ukrainians were asked which Polish authors they knew. It turned out that 95% of Poles had never read a book by a Ukrainian author - and vice versa. What followed was even more interesting. Ukrainians associated Polish authors with Sienkiewicz and Sapkowski, while Poles named Gogol and Oksana Zabuzhko among Ukrainian authors. In terms of getting to know one another, including through culture, we still have much work to do.

But it is also important not to reduce each other to a kind of ethno-folklore, because we have much more to offer one another. We are united by common aspirations and hopes. And commonality does not always arise from similarity. It also arises from the desire to coexist despite differences and wounds.

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Poland and Ukraine: we want to coexist despite differences and wounds

Joanna Mosiej

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