Ben Hodges: Russia can probably hold on for two more years

Since 2014, the return of prisoners of war has been handled by the Joint Centre for the Search and Release of Prisoners of War under the SSU. However, with the onset of full-scale war, the number of captives increased significantly, leading to the establishment of the Coordination Headquarters for the Treatment of Prisoners of War in March 2022. The Head of its Central Representation, Yuliya Pavliuk, emphasises: the main priority is to locate and bring back all captives, but equally important is supporting the families of those missing in action and those waiting for their loved ones to return from captivity.

Nataliya Zhukovska: How are the lists of prisoners of war for exchange formed?

Yuliya Pavliuk: At the onset of the full-scale invasion, Ukraine established the National Information Bureau (NIB). According to the Geneva Convention on international law, this serves as a registry that records all defenders who are missing in action, regardless of their status. Even if military personnel have no relatives, information still has to be included in the NIB by the units where they served. This registry, in essence, becomes the exchange list as it is continuously communicated to the Russian side. In reality, according to international conventions and laws, prisoner exchanges should not occur during active combat. Ukraine currently has unique experience in this field.

There is no clear and regulated system for conducting exchanges. Every exchange and every negotiation is a special operation. Different negotiations for every individual

Of course, we do not disclose the uniqueness, methods, or schemes of conducting negotiations. This is classified information. However, in general, there is prioritisation. Those who have been in captivity since 2014 are a priority. We understand these individuals have spent more than nine years in captivity. However, when Russia proposes to return someone with a shorter duration of captivity, Ukraine accepts them.

Sometimes, after exchanges, misunderstandings and questions arise from families: «Why was that person exchanged and not ours?» Unfortunately, we cannot always dictate conditions to the enemy.

In addition, priority is given to severely ill and wounded men and women. According to international law, such categories of military personnel should be returned to their home country outside of exchanges. However, we know that our enemy does not adhere to these agreements. Overall, Ukraine's official position remains unchanged: we are ready to exchange everyone for everyone.

And who is exchanged with «more difficulty»?

There are categories of officers from certain Armed Forces units, the National Guard of Ukraine, and border guards whom Russia is reluctant to return. Furthermore, sometimes the Russians attach particular significance to prisoners of war with media coverage - those prominent in the media. As a result, media stories do not always positively influence exchange processes. We emphasise this when communicating with families. If relatives want to help somehow, they must consult specialists. War must be managed by the military. When improvisation begins, it is not good and can only cause harm.

If we look at the exchange statistics, for instance, if 100 people are returned, this number proportionally includes military personnel from different units. And if the Armed Forces are the largest, then their members will constitute the majority in captivity

The Armed Forces include the Marine Corps, ground units, assault brigades, reconnaissance battalions, tank crews and artillery personnel. The Armed Forces also have transport services, for example, which are less publicised and discussed, but many of their members are also in captivity. When families question why there are so few of «theirs», it is essential to understand that we consider the approximate total number of those who might be in captivity - tens of thousands of people. In each exchange, there will be more members of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, slightly fewer from the National Guard, border guards, and so on.

Fortunately, there has been significant progress in negotiations, as evidenced by recent exchanges. We have been able to return many defenders who had received life sentences or terms of imprisonment of 8-9 years.

Why are there delays in the exchange of prisoners? What causes prolonged pauses?

Regrettably, this does not depend solely on Ukraine. There are no fixed timelines, such as exchanges every Tuesday or every second Wednesday. It is an unregulated process. There have been instances where timelines and the number of people were agreed upon, only for the exchange to be cancelled either by Russia or due to the overall security situation. For example, if the exchange point comes under fire, the exchange cannot take place that day or soon after.

The exchange itself is a special operation. It may be scheduled for 8:00 in the morning but could be delayed until noon or 8:00 in the evening

Sometimes, Russia announces through its media that the exchange has already taken place when, in fact, it has not. The conditions under which the exchange occurs largely depend on the Russian side.

Where are Ukrainian prisoners held? Where are the worst conditions? What do freed military personnel say about captivity?

There is no «good» captivity. Detainees in prisons and detention centres have limited access to fresh air. They are confined to one room containing a toilet, a table where they eat and sleep, and a single window high up on the wall that does not open. Sometimes walks are allowed, but regimes are not always adhered to. From our side, the only demand we can and do make to the aggressor country is compliance with international conditions and conventions. If they held our defenders under conditions at least consistent with those outlined in the Geneva Convention, the health and well-being of the returned men and women would be significantly better.

Unfortunately, we cannot always influence this situation. Of course, upon their return, military personnel speak extensively about the torture they endured. We continually appeal to our international partners, particularly the UN mission and the International Red Cross. They are responsible for the condition of our military personnel.

Many of the freed men suffer from severe illnesses, consequences of serious injuries, and significant weight loss due to torture and inadequate nutrition

Upon returning from captivity, they undergo interviews with specialised services. The war crimes committed by the enemy are meticulously documented. What we can do now is document all the facts and transfer them to the appropriate international bodies.

How would you evaluate the activities of the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC)? What are the challenges in working with them?

Regrettably, representatives of this organisation in Russia are almost never allowed access to places where Ukrainian prisoners are held. Their work in temporarily occupied territories and in Russia is currently very limited and insufficient. Most of our defenders, returned from captivity, claim they have never seen Red Cross representatives even once. This particularly includes the delivery of letters and parcels. Even if parcels are sent via the Red Cross, they do not always reach the prisoners. We understand that the administration of the detention facilities may keep the parcels. However, the Red Cross should ensure that the parcels reach their intended recipients.

That is why we appeal to all international organisations and urge them to ensure the implementation of the mandate granted to the ICRC specifically in the aggressor’s country. They are the guarantors of the safety of our defenders there. We, in turn, provide every possible assistance to the Red Cross Mission in Ukraine. We have even created so-called mixed medical commissions, where representatives of various organisations, including the Red Cross, can visit prisoners and assess their condition. Through this initiative, we hoped Russia would follow our example and provide the same access to our prisoners. Unfortunately, to date, we see no results.

Can this explain why the Russians treat some battalions in captivity worse than others?

I see the men and women who return. I am present at every exchange. I cannot say that the condition of the military personnel depends on the unit they are in. I always state that much depends on the condition of the defenders at the time of their capture, their endurance, and their internal strength.

For those weaker in character and spirit, of course, it is harder. During one exchange, representatives of Ukraine’s KORD unit and the National Police were among those returned. One serviceman appeared to be in good physical shape. I asked him: «How did you manage? What were your conditions?» He replied: «I used all my efforts to keep myself in good shape. Whenever possible, I exercised - push-ups or pull-ups.»

Why are the conditions of Russian prisoners of war so drastically different from those of Ukrainian ones? How do they form the lists for exchange on their side?

The conditions differ because Ukraine is a legal state, which sets us apart from our enemy. We adhere to international conditions, conventions, and legislation. This is why all civilised countries of the world support us.

There are prescribed conditions under which prisoners of war should be held. In Ukraine, there are camps — special places for keeping prisoners. We are not like Russians.

Regarding the formation of exchange lists by the Russians, we cannot comment on this. Sometimes even the lists published by Russia do not always correspond to reality

If we analyse the latest Russian disinformation campaigns, the lists include individuals who have already been freed from captivity. At the same time, there are no severely wounded individuals, those who have been in captivity since the early days of the war, members of the Mariupol garrison, Chornobyl NPP personnel who are still held, or defenders from Zmiinyi Island. This is all done to spread disinformation and provoke our society. In my opinion, they form these lists randomly. Additionally, the Russians sometimes include civilians in the lists who, under the Geneva Conventions, should have been released without any exchange.

What should be the first steps if a loved one goes missing or is taken captive?

The first step when a serviceman goes missing is for the family to receive a notification from territorial recruitment centres if it concerns Armed Forces units. For units of the National Guard, border guards, or police officers, families receive information from their respective units. Next, families should contact law enforcement and file a report stating that their loved one is missing. Naturally, they should also contact the Coordination Headquarters. This is where people can receive clarifications on various issues. The Coordination Headquarters website has a personal account feature, which family members or representatives of the defender must use. It contains the most comprehensive information.

We always emphasise that this is a very powerful system where all available information about the defender must be provided, and families must ensure that this account is always active. And, of course, stay in touch.

What should absolutely not be done? Are there known cases where families of captives are approached with fraudulent offers, such as asking for money to return someone from captivity?

We constantly tell people to verify all information carefully with representatives of law enforcement or security units. War is a matter for the military. Unfortunately, fraudsters exploit human grief. Families post information on social networks, and fraudsters use it.

My personal advice as a representative of the Coordination Headquarters and a human rights lawyer is never to do this. Information posted online can also be found by representatives of the aggressor country. Fraudsters use it for personal gain through deceitful means, and the enemy uses it to obtain, among other things, intelligence data. Therefore, we advise: «Consult with special services». We know precisely how to follow this path correctly to avoid harming the family, the defender, or the state’s security.

How can the relatives or loved ones of captives assist in their release?

The exchange and return of prisoners are operational special operations that relatives are not involved in. Today, many families unite in community organisations. A coordination council has been established under the Coordination Headquarters, which includes representatives of these community organisations. We understand that the number of missing servicemen is too large for the Coordination Headquarters to handle alone. However, these community organisations will be involved in these processes. Such work is effective.

They also participate in international negotiations and conferences. Furthermore, relatives often find information about captives - possible photographs or videos - in enemy public forums. Verified information is then added to the personal account by the Coordination Headquarters. Such assistance from families is invaluable.

Do public actions in support of prisoners of war help accelerate exchanges, or do they hinder them?

In my opinion, awareness campaigns are appropriate during a time of war. Our nation must demonstrate its unity.

Moreover, these campaigns are a constant reminder to the world that we are enduring a bloody war, and thousands of prisoners are still held in the aggressor’s country and must be brought home.

Awareness campaigns are for the community. Negotiations and exchanges are handled by the military

However, when campaigns involve accusations and discrediting of state institutions, this undeniably plays into the hands of the Russians.

The UN Human Rights Monitoring Mission in Ukraine reported in October on torture and mistreatment of Ukrainian prisoners of war. At the same time, they noted that they had documented mistreatment of Russian armed forces prisoners of war. How objective is this report?

Ukraine is fully open to international observers, primarily to representatives of the UN and the Red Cross. We provide them with complete assistance. At the same time, the Russian side does not allow these representatives to even interview prisoners of war. This creates a very unequal situation, where we are fully transparent, and representatives can interview Russian prisoners of war and visit places of detention, but our men and women are completely inaccessible. This is a one-sided situation. The claims about the alleged mistreatment of Russian armed forces prisoners are just testimonies and statements. Let me tell you as a former investigator: to prove crimes, you need evidence. And that is not just words. There must be evidence, such as an inspection of the location and the condition of the defender. When we see our men returned with visible injuries, these are documented. This provides a much stronger evidentiary base than just words or statements someone might provide.

Does international humanitarian law work during the war in Ukraine? What are the chances of holding Russian war criminals accountable for violations of the Geneva Conventions?

We need to win the war. All those guilty must and will be punished. If we are speaking about the documentation of war crimes, everyone sees the condition in which Ukrainian prisoners of war return home. The evidence and facts that Ukraine possesses are indisputable. Accountability will happen. It is just a matter of time.

Photos provided by the press service of the Central Representation of the Coordination Headquarters on the Treatment of Prisoners of War

In 2024, Russia significantly expanded the network of «re-education camps» and increased the militarisation and indoctrination of abducted Ukrainian children. Each of these children, upon returning home, requires rehabilitation - receiving a complex of various forms of assistance. How many Ukrainian children were actually abducted by Russia, what they are taught in the «re-education camps», and what are the prospects for the return of deported Ukrainians - discussed in an interview with Olena Rozvadovska, the founder and head of «Voices of Children» Charitable Foundation.

Nataliia Zhukovska: On October 2nd, seven children aged between 3 and 14 were returned to Ukrainian-controlled territory. All of them were from the Kherson and Crimea regions. This was reported by the head of the Save Ukraine organisation, Mykola Kuleba. And at the end of September, according to the ombudsman Dmytro Lubinets, nine children were also returned home. How many Ukrainian children in total have been abducted by Russia?

‍Olena Rozvadovska: According to open sources, Russia has deported over 700 thousand people. The official figure from the Ukrainian authorities is around 20 thousand children. This is the number we rely on. However, it is impossible to state the exact number. Since the war continues, there might be one number of children today and another tomorrow. We also do not have access to the occupied territories or Russian territory.

What happens to Ukrainian children in Russia?

Recently, together with the public association «Ukrainian Network for Children's Rights», the NGO «Regional Human Rights Centre» prepared a report based on specific cases. Our part focused on children's psychological support and rehabilitation after their return. Speaking generally about what happens, according to the children, the scenarios vary.

In some cases, there is group deportation, and they are placed in various child-like camps in Crimea or on the territory of Russia and Belarus. It is known that in the occupied territories of Ukraine, processes are underway to deprive parents of their parental rights according to Russian legislation

Children can be taken under the pretext of so-called threats to life or health without further clarification. Afterwards, they can be placed in foster families. All of this is undoubtedly illegal and constitutes a war crime, which the Ukrainian side is documenting.

How does the process of «liberating» Ukrainian children take place?

Our foundation «Voices of Children» is not involved in the return of children. In fact, each case is individual. There is no return mechanism, just as there is no mechanism for prisoners of war. Generally, the official sides cannot agree on the return of a certain number of children home. This is not that type of case. Russia does not recognise the fact that these are abducted or deported children. According to the Russians, they are rescuing them from shelling. For them, this is a «humanitarian mission». We, however, understand that this is abduction, forced deportation and russification of the nation on RF territory.

As of today, it is the relatives of the child who is in Russia that go to retrieve them. Volunteers who work in coordination with the Ministry of Integration, the President's Office, the Ombudsman, and others assist them in their logistics. That is, the relatives themselves search for those children.

What is the greatest difficulty?

The greatest difficulty is that any person who goes to Russia for the child is in a high-risk zone. There is a chance that they may not return with the child because they could be detained. Moreover, the process always involves humiliating and difficult filtration procedures and an extensive number of various checks. The return process may take several weeks or even months. In one case documented in our report, a grandmother was ready to travel to Russia to get her granddaughter. The return of the child lasted 14 months. The woman faced 18-hour interrogations at the Russian border and threats. Russia hindered the process in every way possible. To delay the child’s exit from Russia, the grandmother was made part of a criminal case. The family was only reunited after a second attempt, and only after the girl’s mother reported the obstacles faced in returning the child at a UN Security Council meeting.

The logistics are also challenging. Typically, the journey to the occupied territories or Russia involves passing through several European countries

The difficulty lies in locating, verifying, and finding these children. It is all very monotonous and complex work. According to official statistics published on the «Children of War» website, 388 children have been returned to date. As you can see, the figure is not even in the thousands. The complexity lies in the fact that there is no organised return of, for example, an entire group of children from an institutional-type facility that was taken. However, the greatest difficulty is the time we lose every day. Children who were taken at 2,5 years of age are now 5,5 years old. They may not remember what happened to them. Moreover, for the child, this is already a trauma. The longer they remain in isolation and subjected to active brainwashing, the harder it becomes to bring them back. And we understand that this is exactly what Russia is doing.

And of course, when children end up in Russian families and are adopted, these cases are even more difficult. Imagine yourself as a little three-year-old girl. You are brought into a family, and you adapt. At that age, it does not matter where the child lives because they do not understand the situation they have ended up in. They simply live.

In your recent report, you mentioned over 5500 clubs of military-patriotic education and hundreds of «re-education camps» operating in Russia and Belarus. How exactly are Ukrainian children re-educated there? How does indoctrination occur?

This research was conducted by the Regional Human Rights Centre. Their specialists describe the patriotism lessons that the children go through. In the curriculum approved by the Russian Ministry of Education, Ukraine is not depicted as an independent and united state. According to our colleagues’ research, propaganda narratives are embedded not only in textbooks but are also imposed during extracurricular but mandatory classes such as «Conversations About Important Matters» and «Lessons of Courage». The «cadet and Cossack classes» operate within schools, aimed at preparing students for military service.

One manifestation of political indoctrination is the activities of so-called patriotic and military-patriotic movements

In Russia, so-called «re-education camps» also operate. Russia spares no expense on their operation. They are very professional in their information warfare. This machine is in full motion at every level. Every teacher, adult, and school administrator knows where to get the «correct» information that needs to be conveyed to the children. And even if someone turns on the television, they will find confirmation of everything they have already been told. In these camps, there is a system of so-called patriotic education. They introduce children to their «heroes», teach them, and sing the Russian anthem. In doing so, they erase national self-identity. The Russians' goal is to make Ukrainian children see themselves as part of the Russian people.

What methods does Russia use on Ukrainian children to make them literally forget that they are Ukrainians?

It is primarily about psychological and moral pressure. Our psychologist, who worked with a boy who was returned to Ukraine, also spoke about how he endured physical abuse and torture. I know that human rights defenders are recording even more severe and horrific cases. The hardest situation in Russia is for those children who openly demonstrate their pro-Ukrainian stance. They are constantly subjected to moral pressure and intimidation. The Russians calculated that the children would break. They were constantly told: «No one cares about you, no one will come for you. You have been forgotten. If you return, you will be recognised as collaborators or as those who worked with Russia and will be sent to prison». The children, not knowing whether it was true or not, thought: «Maybe I really will be imprisoned for being in Russia?». Any scary thought can take root in a stressed mind.

Freedom House, together with ZMINA. The Centre for Human Rights and the Regional Centre for Human Rights presented new evidence to the International Court regarding the direct involvement of the Lukashenko regime in the displacement, political indoctrination, and militarisation of education for over 2200 children from occupied Ukrainian territories. How can this evidence contribute to the return of Ukrainian children?

Firstly, it is about documenting violations. Cases in The Hague can take decades to review. Despite this, someone must continue documenting these violations. It is also about increasing international pressure. If no one speaks about this, documents it, or submits it, it may seem like the problem is resolved, and there are no issues. This needs to remain in the public domain and be discussed at various levels.

Of course, we would all like for this to be resolved in one day, and for Russia to be excluded even from the UN. However, we understand that it cannot be done so quickly

I believe that it is absolutely the right path for both state authorities and public organisations to continue working on documenting, collecting violations, and passing them on to the relevant institutions. As a result of documented violations, arrest warrants have been issued for Putin and Lvova-Belova. I am confident that Russian sanctions will only intensify. It is important not to grow tired of this work. Every Ukrainian, at their own level, must shout about the genocide that Russia is committing in today's world, right in the heart of Europe.

What is Ukraine doing to ensure that Russia is held accountable under international law for the abduction and illegal adoption of Ukrainian children?

Ukraine is doing everything within its power. International coalitions for the return of children are being created. International groups of prosecutors and investigators are working to document information on violations. Ukraine is regularly represented on various international platforms.

A wide range of measures are being taken to hold Russia accountable for its crimes - and not only those concerning children. It is unfortunate that these processes are not as swift as we would like them to be.

Your foundation, «Voices of Children», has been active since 2015. How have these «voices» changed since Russia's full-scale invasion?

Since 2015, I have been working as a volunteer with children in the east of the country along the entire frontline, and in 2019, we officially registered as a foundation. There have been many changes over nearly 10 years. In 2015, I was alone, but now our team consists of 220 people. The difference is that in 2015, the war was confined to two regions, but today it spans the entire country. Another change is that as of 2019, we had between 50 and 100 children under our care in various frontline locations and just one psychological support programme. It was very localised and targeted work. We travelled to remote villages where buses did not go. After 24 February 2022, when drones and missiles began flying across the whole of Ukraine, the format of our work changed drastically. The frontline today is more intense and much larger in scale.

Today, our centres are located in the largest cities along the frontline - from Chernihiv to Kharkiv, Zaporizhzhia, Dnipro, Kryvyi Rih, and Mykolaiv. It is not easy to work there due to the constant shelling. However, the children living there need socialisation. Their schooling is online, and they do not go anywhere - so our sessions are a small escape for them. War, whether large or small, always impacts children.

Why do parents return with their children to areas under shelling despite the danger?

It is hard to understand, but that is how it is. Everyone has their own story. You cannot say that all people have lost their minds about returning to dangerous cities and villages. That is not true! Sane, healthy, and thoughtful people are returning. The reasons vary greatly. Many simply could not settle elsewhere. People leave, spend all their money on renting accommodation, fail to find work, and return. This is the reality for many families. Some remain or return to dangerous regions because they have bedridden parents they cannot leave behind. That is why I never judge these people, although I am convinced that it is wrong to remain under shelling, especially with children.

How do you work with parents who refuse to evacuate with their children from dangerous zones?

It is a difficult process. If adults do not want to leave the area, they simply sign a refusal to evacuate. Parents bear primary responsibility for their children. Often, they refuse out of fear. Here, the state has not done enough to ensure that everyone has a clear understanding of where these people are going. They need to have at least some certainty in emergency situations. There is another group of parents who simply abuse their position and manipulate their children. Generally, these are the adults who do not take care of their children and are not interested in saving their mental health and lives. The state mechanisms must also work in these cases.

These children need to be removed. This is the job of social services, but it is not easy for them to work on the frontline. Many factors have come together to create the situation as it stands

I remember one story where we moved a family with three children from a frontline village and bought them a house in a rear area. A year later, they returned to their village. In this situation, there was nothing we could do because we do not have the right to remove children from their families.

What is the current psychological state of the children? Does it differ depending on where they live in Ukraine?

Various factors influence the psychological state of children. Certainly, the place of residence plays a role. There is a difference between living in Uzhhorod and living in Zaporizhzhia. These are two completely different realities. Obviously, the more dangerous the area of residence, the more threatening the situation for their mental health. However, much also depends on the family. A child senses the anxiety of adults. Parents are the window to the outside world for children. It is not just the rockets that scare them during war, but also their mother’s reaction to them. The presence of education, peer groups and opportunities for communication also have an impact on a child's mental health. Children in Kharkiv and Zaporizhzhia suffer greatly. Recently, we gathered children’s dreams in Zaporizhzhia, and one girl wrote: «I want this online schooling to finally end».

Our psychologists report that today, children are more frequently presenting with anxiety and depressive states, especially teenagers. Some children develop enuresis, hand tremors, and sleep disturbances. Others, due to stress or traumatic experiences, may exhibit eating behaviour disorders.

What do you think the state should do to work with children currently abroad, and how should they be brought back?

We understand that in addition to returning children abducted by Russia, we also need to work with those who are currently displaced abroad. Ukraine must be highly interested in ensuring that all working-age people, and not only children, return. For example, we often receive requests for online psychological assistance from parents abroad, as they are looking for Ukrainian-speaking specialists for their children. It is no secret that living abroad was a dream for some, but for many, it is not a fairytale.

A very large number of people dream of returning home. However, urging them to do so now is certainly wrong, as the war continues

For people to return, the economy must function, jobs need to be created, and education must develop. But first and foremost, the war must end with our victory.

Even the country with the best economy in the world cannot function normally when drones hit schools. It is abnormal and wrong. Today, hubs need to be created so that people abroad can still feel connected to Ukraine and remain within the Ukrainian information space. Moreover, we must constantly keep the world's attention focused and, of course, talk about the fact that Ukraine alone cannot counter Russian propaganda and stop such a powerful enemy.

Main photo: AA/ABACA/Abaca/East News